Telephone interview of
Sandra Pickinpaugh
(by Anders V. Rosenquist)

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After Debra Milke was sentenced to death in January 1991 attorney Anders V. Rosenquist stepped in for her defense. Later the next year, in October 1992, he had the chance for a telephone interview with Debra's sister, SANDRA PICKINPAUGH, who not only recorded the secret tape, but gave damaging testimony at trial. However, the transcript of this interview reveals a lot of background information, of how the State Attorney and former Police Detective Saldate dealt with SANDY as a witness and what the actual family situation looked like.

This transcript has long remained unpublished and not been a part of the official legal documents. The original tape of this telephone interview is in the hands of Debra's defense attorneys Mike Kimerer & Lori Voepel of the law firm "Kimerer & Derrick, P.C."



( ... )
Mr. Rosenquist: And then --
Sandra Pickinpaugh: The only thing that really stands out on my mind is Saldate and some other investigator kept calling me on the phone and telling me, I kept postponing the interview, because I was in my ninth month of pregnancy and I didn't really want to bother with it. And, I told them that, I remember Saldate telling me on the phone the very last time, he had just, he called and told me he had his reservations and he was coming up the next day. And, I told him that it was really inconvenient for me and he said, well, either you do it now or you get subpoenaed and you're going to have to deliver your baby early.
Mr. Rosenquist: You are kidding --
Sandra Pickinpaugh: At the time, you know, well gee ... and we didn't really have an exact due date. I've always and you know, he kept hounding me for a due date and I told him, I said, I'm just one of these weird people, it just comes when it wants to come and I go longer than nine months, always have. And, he was getting, he was getting, I wouldn't say mad. I guess he was just getting a little frustrated with me because I kept putting of this interview. And, so like I said, finally he just called to inform that he was driving into Salt Lake and was going to drive from Salt Lake the following day.
Mr. Rosenquist: Why did he want to interview you so bad?
Sandra Pickinpaugh: I don't know.
Mr. Rosenquist: Did people tell you?
Sandra Pickinpaugh: Well, he had told me. Well, at this time we had all the you know, so called evidence, and we already knew what we perceived to be the truth. And, what he told me he needed from me was just basic character, whatever you know, about Debbie because we, I knew Debbie better than my own parents did because my mom left when we were young and then, you know, my Dad. Of course, my dad is a whole different story. But Debbie and I were never close, but we always knew what was going on with each other. And he said that I was the only one that could testify to thing that my dad couldn't. And, obviously, they couldn't touch my mom because she was overseas. That's what he told me. He said my dad told Saldate that he was not going to be able to testify too much because unfortunately, he always made a practice to stay out of our lives and so he needed me for that reason, to testify on Debbie's character. And to let him know what he was dealing with because he said he was kind of, he really didn't know how to take her. He said that she worried him because she was so -- I don't remember the word he used. He used some Spanish word but he said it means that she had a split personality. And then, but he, in the interview, the thing that sticks, and it still and it always bothered me is we really didn't -- I mean, we talked, of course of Debbie and how she was with Christopher and the way she chose to conduct her life and so on and so forth, but he seemed to be more interested in Debbie's practices with men, as you know, sexual practices with me and he seemed more interested in what she was like in relationships more so than what kind of a mother she was. And I thought that really strange, and the only thing that I kicked myself for is, the Judge would have to have the tape or whoever, but I was told, my dad told me to tape the conversation so I wouldn't, so nothing would be changed in my testimony and so as soon as he walked out the door, I had to go right then and there to the post office and mail it to my dad.
Now, I did not hear the tape from the time, I never even rewound it or heard it or anything like that, but I sent the tape directly to my dad and had not heard it from that point on. It just left my hands. The first day I testified I was told to bring in the tape the second day.
Mr. Rosenquist: Yeah, I remember that.
Sandra Pickinpaugh: And, I took, I gave the tape to the judge and things that they were asking me after the tape, were not things that Saldate and I talked about. It had nothing to do with what we talked about. And, but, at the time they kept asking me if that was the only tape, if that was the only tape, and I kept looking at my dad and my dad kept shaking his head, yeah, and that is what I told them that it was the only tape. But anytime I would try to elaborate on something, I wasn't given the opportunity and like I said it just struck me odd that Saldate told me that the questions he was asking me in the interview were going to be the same exact questions that were going to be asked of me in the trial and they weren't. I mean, there were some similarities, but the detailed thing they were asking me, I had no idea where they got, and I, you know, I was up there answering them but it wasn't what -- They made me leave Court as soon as I got off the stand. It kind of made me mad because I flew all the way up here and they get on the stand they want to know about this tape so they could review it and the prosecution and defense can ask their questions. And when I came back the next day, the questions were none of which I was, of which I, you know, I wasn't prepared to answer them. And, during the testimony, I was told before by these people, the victim witness or whatever they are, I was told not to hesitate not for one minute about anything. Just to answer the questions and to try to elaborate as much as I could, but like I said when you get up on the stand they don't give you a chance to elaborate. They just say, it's quite enough, thank you Mrs. Pickenpaugh or you know, let's move on Mrs. Pickenpaugh, they don't let you --
And I just assume that's the way it works. Heck, I have never been in Court. I never went to a funeral much less Court.
Mr. Rosenquist: Unfortunately.
Sandra Pickinpaugh: Just doing what they told us to do and they basically, just in the back room right before the trial started everyday, were telling us new things to do and how to sit and how to look and where to look, how to answer questions and when to emphasis on the sympathy and when to emphasis on your anger. I mean they --
Mr. Rosenquist: Who was telling you that?
Sandra Pickinpaugh: The people in the victim witness, you know. And they were telling us that they work for this Noel Levy or whatever.
Mr. Rosenquist: Yeah, he is the Prosecutor.
Sandra Pickinpaugh: Yeah, and they were, he, and I am assuming that they came in under his orders or whatever to tell us to do this. You know, because they said that you have to conduct yourself in a certain way in Court and you know that is what they did.
Mr. Rosenquist: Did they ever get in, did they know what these tapes were? Did they get into, did anybody even get into telling you what to say? Directly or indirectly, if you know what I mean?
Sandra Pickinpaugh: Well, like I said they didn't directly really come out and say, well, 'if I ask you this, say this' because, like I said, things that Saldate asked me at the house, in my opinion, had nothing to do with Debbie's case. I mean, it was more like some guy was interested in my sister asking me what she likes to do in a date, you know. And, that struck me kind of odd but I don't know. I had my opinion about that, but I just figured whatever. They didn't, he just told me that he didn't seem really uncomfortable having the tape there, but he kept saying, is the tape over, you know, do you have to turn it over, do you need to get a new tape? And, then when the tape first started, he asked me if I knew why he was there for and I said, yes, that he was there to interview me and he said, well, we are here to find out what kind of person your sister was and I said, that's fine. He said that these same questions that I'm asking you today would be the same questions that the prosecuting attorney will ask you in trial and you have to be specific with your answers. I said, okay, fine. And like I said though, when I got up on the stand, it was not the questions that I was asked at home. They had nothing to do with what Saldate and I talked about. But, he kept telling me that if I would waffle on something or have to stop and think, is that your line?
Mr. Rosenquist: Hold on, that's my call waiting. Excuse me, I'm sorry, one second I have to change the tape.
Sandra Pickinpaugh: Yeah.
Mr. Rosenquist: Go ahead.
Sandra Pickinpaugh: Well, I mean that just kind of struck me as odd but I mean the questions that they were asking me, they were just character questions. I mean they just wanted to, in the interview with him at my house, he wanted to know how many boyfriends she had and how often she went out, how often Chris was in my position or her mother-in-laws under the table and I was looking at her like, okay you know, help me out here, whatever. But when the prosecution would rest and the defense would get back, I'd say okay, now I'm going to have a chance to elaborate on these answers but the defense attorney was no better than the prosecution attorney, in my opinion. Because, it would, you mean, I'm not a lawyer or anything, I mean I work in a law office --
Mr. Rosenquist: Yeah, I know what you mean.
Sandra Pickinpaugh: But you would think that, you know, that if I made a statement that to somebody like a jury, a common everyday person, would want to know, well, why was this. And, her own defense attorney would get it and ask his own sets of questions which had nothing to do with the questions that the prosecution had just asked me. You know, they were- And, actually my opinion, the defense attorney was asking me stupid questions, had nothing to do with, you know. I don't know it just felt like there were 2 different trials going on and I was trying to answer 2 different questions for --
Mr. Rosenquist: Well, that makes complete sense and that's what I detected although I didn't know, that's why I have to ask the question and kind of leave it open. I think probably the best thing in the world for us to do at this point is for me to send you a copy of your testimony and then let you just take each question and elaborate on it. In other words, finish the statements so to speak. It's very, very critical because the way, you're right, the way this is coached, I mean it's just devastating. I said, maybe it's true but I've got to find out if there was a lot more explanation or things that would. See, it's kind of like taking things out of context. In fact, that's the real name of the game when it's an adversary proceeding. You know, any point where she would feel violent, you know, you'd say, yes but then you didn't have a chance to describe. Well, yeah but she never hit him or did that, I knew she wouldn't follow through. And, a good defense attorney would say, well remember Mrs. So and so when you said that, you know, that's kind of a flat statement, could you elaborate on that and then that's what he should have done but, obviously, he didn't. And, I didn't know whether he was afraid to do that because you would sink her more or whether he didn't do it because he didn't know that you were going to, you know, that the answers could benefit her if they were expanded on.
Sandra Pickinpaugh: Well, like you said, you talk about anger too. And I say this to my mom all the time, she wasn't there. And she doesn't understand what, we were constantly being harassed by the telephone or letters or ... and I would get on the phone with my dad and just say, Jesus, here I was pregnant and they had told me that they were going to hold the trial until I had time to be with my child, yet, there was not peace in our house because there was constant phone calls.
Mr. Rosenquist: You mean from the District Attorney and police officers?
Sandra Pickinpaugh: Everybody, from victim witness or from the County Attorney's office, or you know.
Mr. Rosenquist: How often would they call you?
Sandra Pickinpaugh: Oh God, I mean almost every time we turned around it was, we got to the point where we just left our machine on all the time because, I would say 3 and 4 times a week. And before, the first 7 months of the investigation, nobody would give us any information.
Mr. Rosenquist: Why would, let me ask you this. What would they ask you when they called you, I can't understand.
Sandra Pickinpaugh: They would ask me how I was doing and how the baby was coming along and how was my health and had I gotten over Christopher's death and --
Mr. Rosenquist: And this was obviously after the interview?
Sandra Pickinpaugh: No, this was before the interview.
Mr. Rosenquist: Before the interview?
Sandra Pickinpaugh: Yeah. This was before the interview.
Mr. Rosenquist: Well, then. What I'm confused about - and I need you to help me - is how come they were so concerned about you if they didn't know what you were going to testify to?
Sandra Pickinpaugh: Well, because like I said. The first 7 months of the so-called investigation, I was calling my dad to find out if he had heard anything and he hadn't heard anything and we were kind of wondering but my dad was always telling me, well, call and find out which to me doesn't make any sense because he was right there in the State and I was two States away but my attitude at that time was, well, if they hadn't called us that you know, it's probably good news. Don't worry about it and then, like I said, from my 7 to my 9 month they were constantly calling and like I said, the last time that Saldate called, he just informed me that he was on his way down.
Mr. Rosenquist: But, I still don't understand. Somebody must have told him that you are gonna probably provide some pretty damaging testimony.
Sandra Pickinpaugh: Well you see, that's what ... because I never even talked to the man prior to that. I had never even met the man.
Mr. Rosenquist:  Do you think your dad might have told him that or Dorothy?
Sandra Pickinpaugh: Well, Dorothy if I remember right, Dorothy didn't even come into the picture until actually the very beginning of the trial and my dad had asked me. He said that he had remembered my step-sister, Karen, telling him about this child neglect report, so dad had called me and asked me if I knew where to get a hold of Dorothy. And this, we were already in trial when this was going on.
Mr. Rosenquist: Oh, I see.
Sandra Pickinpaugh: If I remember right because I mean it came out of the blue. He had just called me one night and told me that, you know, if I knew where Dorothy was at and I said yes, I happened to know she had moved to Vegas and I had called information and got her number and called her and told her to get a hold of my dad and then my dad told her to get a hold of this victim witness.
Mr. Rosenquist:  Let me ask you another thing then. I don't know your dad and I'm certainly not gonna contact him at this point. But, your dad does work for the prison system and I was a little bit hesitant. I don't want information getting back in because I really don't know what his relationship was with the investigation officer and it kind of scares me because he seems to be, I don't know. A second investigator. Did you get any type of impression that he was trying to come up with evidence to help the prosecutor or he was working with Saldate or maybe a different to say that is was he so convinced by Saldate that Debbie was guilty that he was actually trying to come up with evidence to substantiate that? Does that make sense or not?
Sandra Pickinpaugh: Well, the only way I can answer you is this way. A long time ago when mom, well mom, my mom had tried to live with herself that Debbie was guilty, but there was always something that was sticking in her craw?
Mr. Rosenquist: Yeah.
 Sandra Pickinpaugh: And, I know she called, I think it was one of the holidays when my mom had called and my mom was drunk and she was talking all this kind of nonsense about getting Debbie off and she had found this evidence, you know, it was in her mind that she had all this evidence and so I had called my dad and I told my dad. I think my mom is losing her mind, I can't deal with this and my dad said, what she was saying and I told him, well, she's telling me that she has this evidence. At this time it was against Mark or something, that she knew that Mark had something to do with it. I don't know she was just talking really crazy and my dad told me, he gave me a big sermon about family that my mom had dumped us and that it was Debbie's fault where she was at and not to mess with it and then we had gone down there in February and I had brought it up again. I said, dad do you ever think that maybe, you know, that Debbie was innocent. Plus the fact that my son's father, the one that's close to Christopher's age, his sister works in CP6 and she saw JIM every day.
When were there in February, I went over to visit. They live next door to my parents and I went over to visit them.
Mr. Rosenquist: What's her name?
Sandra Pickinpaugh: Drew Anne Martin.
Mr. Rosenquist: Okay, is she a guard down there?
Sandra Pickinpaugh: Well, she had told me that they had a big joke, you know, we were talking about JIM and everything. And she said that they had a big joke at the prison that every time they take JIM out for a shower or for rec. or whatever that JIM would ask them where he's going and they'll say, well, we're going to see Santa Clause, ha ha ha. And she said to me not to say to my dad because my dad will get angry and it's not allowed to be talked about. The case was not allowed to be talked about and I thought that was kind of odd at the time so I asked my step-mom about it and she told me that it's because my dad cannot handle Christopher's loss and I said, well, what about Debbie's loss and Maureen said, Debbie died when Christopher died and that's the end of it.
Mr. Rosenquist: Did this guard down at, did she say anything else about what Mr. STYERS said?
Sandra Pickinpaugh: She said, well she asked me how well I knew him and stuff and I told her and she said that she that she found it really hard to believe that somebody like that was capable of doing it but she had never really, she doesn't talk to him or anything. She's not really allowed to talk to him because of the closeness with my dad and his family. So, they were instructed that if they were going to continue working at the prison that they were not allowed to even speak to him because then they'd come up for investigation, all this stuff. But, Drew Anne had told me that some of her other inmates that are on the floor with her, they all seem to think he's a nice person and everything and that was all she really said.
Mr. Rosenquist: None of them corroborate any of the things that I said?
Sandra Pickinpaugh: No, I mean but we never really got into it, you know, so I mean, I guess if I talked to her and maybe I brought it up she might say something but we really didn't talk about it because my son was standing there and that doesn't really carry too well --
Mr. Rosenquist: Would you feel comfortable calling her again and talking to her about that?
Sandra Pickinpaugh: Oh yeah. I don't have a problem talking to her about that.
Mr. Rosenquist: Because the more, I mean. She's not going to get in trouble I'll tell you that right now because if they even ... I've dealt with that prison long enough, if they even looked at her wrong, in fact, I've defended guards down there, which is an odd situation. You know, that prison system, the ways it run, it's on the verge of exploding anyway, but you know, I have worked on a lot of cases where I've had prison guards work with me and I have always protected the employees so, I mean I don't want you to think that she would get in any trouble but it's so critical. The more corroboration I can get to, you know, what MR. STYERS said and SCOTT said, I mean, that would be so beneficial because. See, they wouldn't allow his letters to come into evidence where emphatically denied her involvement and said that he was lying about it.
Sandra Pickinpaugh: Yeah. That's not what I was told. I was told that he was writing Debbie letters and the only thing that was in the letters, no, don't think I had to testify to it. The only thing I testified to is JIM wrote me a letter in, it was in October or November and he had written me a letter and I called my dad as soon as I wrote the letter and my dad told me to send it to him immediately and then Jan called me ...
Mr. Rosenquist: Jan Frobbe?
Sandra Pickinpaugh: Yeah. She called me and then I had to send the letter to her.
Mr. Rosenquist:  What did the letter say?
Sandra Pickinpaugh: Oh, God. Just that he didn't do it. That he was not guilty and I have to please believe him.
Mr. Rosenquist: Did he say anything about Debbie?
Sandra Pickinpaugh: No.
Mr. Rosenquist: Did he say anything about SCOTT then? Did he blame it all on SCOTT?
Sandra Pickinpaugh: Yeah. Yeah, he said SCOTT was. It was just the opposite story, it was ... kind of hard to remember exactly but I know he turned the whole thing around and blamed, but nothing about Debbie. He told me that SCOTT was the one that had decided to do it because he needed the money for attorney's fees, social security something or other.
Mr. Rosenquist: Oh, SCOTT was in trouble too then?
Sandra Pickinpaugh: Yeah. He needed $ 250.00 to hire an attorney and JIM said he figured it out while he was waiting to be tried and that's why it happened.
Mr. Rosenquist:  Did I tell you that the insurance that they were, or was it ever explained to you that the insurance that was such big issue here was insurance that was automatic that she got from employment that was on dependents. That was no policy taken out on his life for huge sums. I think it was $ 5,000.00 or $ 2,500.00.
Sandra Pickinpaugh: That's the max you can get on a child though anyway.
Mr. Rosenquist: Yeah. I know but they made it sound in the papers, and I reviewed the articles like there was this huge insurance policy that she specifically took out on Christopher shortly before and when I come to find out, it was just part of the employment package and a dependent, in other words the dependence came automatically on her insurance. I was kind of shocked. Well, you know, all these things keep, one thing right after another and I'm saying, come on man, this is just too much. Okay, I really appreciate that. I won't keep you too much longer. What I'd like to do is still send you a copy of the transcript and I'd really appreciate it if you wouldn't mention anything to your dad until I have a chance to posture everything and then I definitely am going to approach him at the right time.
Sandra Pickinpaugh: Good luck.
Mr. Rosenquist:  Well, I think if I present him with enough concrete evidence to where he will honestly that Debbie was not guilty, I think he'll have an entire change of attitude. See what I think and what has been established with me is Saldate just did a job on everybody starting with your mother and everybody else, like you didn't know all the evidence they had, she didn't know all the evidence. But, the impression she got was they got so much evidence it was just overwhelming which in fact was an absolutely lie. I mean, from just what I've told you today, I mean I couldn't believe it. All they had was that confession and you guys' statements and that's it. That is it 100%.
Sandra Pickinpaugh: Well, why did the Judge allow him, his confession into evidence is what I don't understand.
Mr. Rosenquist: Who, SCOTT?
Sandra Pickinpaugh: No, Saldate's confession.
Mr. Rosenquist: Because, I know the Judge and unfortunately, this was a high publicity case. I mean I'm giving my opinion after doing this for 21 years. Judges are voted on every 4 years, number one. This is extremely high publicity case. Everybody, every citizen in this State was convinced beyond any doubt that she was guilty because the evidence was distorted. The insurance, the statements that she wanted the kid dead, the confession, that she hired these guys. It was so distorted that even when I read it, I said, God, that's terrible but you know, there's not much left to that. So the Judge has got a choice of destroying the State's case and letting her walk and ruining her career. And, I'm being very honest with you. If she had suppressed that confession which should have been suppressed, under every, even as conservative as our Supreme Court is now, it still should have been suppressed. I mean, it was so inherently untrustworthy just by the testimony, by the circumstances, by what was said, but she didn't because she knew that the case would be gone and then she'd catch it and then she wouldn't be a Judge in 2-3 years.
Sandra Pickinpaugh: And that's why they do it?
Mr. Rosenquist: Well, you're asking me an opinion based upon my experience and I'm telling you, that's the name of the game.
Sandra Pickinpaugh: Yeah. But you still have a jury though, I mean ...
Mr. Rosenquist: You have a jury but the trouble is the jury hears that coupled, see that's why it was critical, to couple that confession with yours and Dorothy's and your dad's testimony, otherwise, even a jury I'm sure, at least everybody that's looked at the transcripts said they would have just thrown the thing at. In fact, the investigator on the case who helped the trial attorney said, you know, I knew we had a sure winner, you know, until they started really dumping stuff on her about how she took care of him and how she wanted him dead and all sorts of exaggerated stuff.

( ... )


 Can you think of anything Saldate said or did or Levy said or victim witness, that would have mislead you and kind of intimated you into make statements. I don't know quite how to put it, in other words, put pressure. In other words, I know the phone calls and the fact that he's come on up to interview you.
Sandra Pickinpaugh: Well, shoot, they made me induce my child. I mean, they did. I had to induce labor.
Mr. Rosenquist: What?
Sandra Pickinpaugh: Yeah. I had to have my youngest son Cody, I had to have him induced because they kept bothering me about a due date and I didn't really have a due date. And, I told them, see we thought we'd get away with that. Nobody in my family here wanted me to testify. Well, we thought pregnancy was the perfect out. Well, that was crap. I got served with 3, no 2 Subpoenas.
Mr. Rosenquist: Were they from the State of Wyoming?
Sandra Pickinpaugh: No, they were from the State of Arizona.
Mr. Rosenquist: Well, you know those are not legal.
Sandra Pickinpaugh: Well, I called my dad and said, I've got subpoenas here, says you are ordered here to appear. I took them into my doctor, well my doctor even called.
Mr. Rosenquist: What did your dad say, though?
Sandra Pickinpaugh: Well, my dad just said, my dad pretty much just told me. Well, if you got subpoenaed, you have to do it. Because we were under the impression -- see, because Saldate kept telling me, you know, all those times where I would blow him off and tell him, you know, I'm not ready to talk to you yet, the last time he was real kind about it but, he said, we either do it this way or we subpoena you. Okay fine ...
Mr. Rosenquist: Well, let me get back to this. This kind of shocks me, in other words, you were given a time to appear in Court and so you went into the doctor and the doctor actually induced labor so you can appear in Court?
Sandra Pickinpaugh: Yeah.
Mr. Rosenquist: And, how soon after your child did you have to appear?
Sandra Pickinpaugh: One week.
Mr. Rosenquist: Oh, my God.
Sandra Pickinpaugh: I've seen my transcripts. The beginning of my testimony, they asked me, did you have a new baby, how old is, what did you name him?
Mr. Rosenquist: Well, I know but they never covered why.
Sandra Pickinpaugh: Yeah. Cody was induced. I had to have him.
Mr. Rosenquist: Well, let me ask you this then. You know a lot of women go through this, I mean --
Sandra Pickinpaugh: Postpartum depression?
Mr. Rosenquist: That and just terrible weakness in variant degrees. Do you think that could have effected your testimony?
Sandra Pickinpaugh: Well, that's what I wanted to tell you. Like I keep telling my mom. I wasn't angry at Debbie but I was angry at having to -- and, I haven't even been married a year on top of it. You know, we had our own problems, you know. Like I said, I brought Jason, my oldest one into this marriage. My husband had never been a father much less my husband and then - boom -, we're trying to get on with our lives after Christopher's death and then - boom - we have to induce this baby so I can go testify. I had to get on a plane and I was angry. I was angry at the system, I was angry at Levy. I was angry at Saldate for making me do this and it was just ... get me up here, ask me what you ask me so I can go home.


Debbie and Sandy with her families
Debbie and Sandy
with their families


Mr. Rosenquist: I know, but let me ask you this. What is your opinion as to, one week after a child, I mean, my God, my fiance's niece just had a child, I mean daughter-in-law, excuse me, yesterday. And, they're keeping her in the hospital for like 4 days and then she has to rest for a week after that and not get out of the bed.
Sandra Pickinpaugh: She must have had a C-section then because natural childbirth they send you home. Well, there's another thing. I had to leave the hospital that night I delivered my second son because my husband had just started a brand new job and there was nobody at home to watch my oldest son and my doctor would not, she did not want to release me but there was nobody here at the house to take care of my child so it had been one stress after another.
Mr. Rosenquist: Do you feel that you were definitely, how should I put it in all fairness suffering from what you would call a mental condition which caused you, did not give you the ability to testify in a sensible and relaxed and coherent manner. Does that make sense to you?
Sandra Pickinpaugh: Yeah. It makes sense the way you put it but it makes it sound like I was crazy.
Mr. Rosenquist: No, I'm talking about weakness.
Sandra Pickinpaugh: I was tired, I was extremely exhausted.
Mr. Rosenquist: And, everybody knows that happens when you get extremely tired and your exhausted plus the postpartum thing. And, I'm asking you, do you think those conditions materially affected your testimony. I mean you'll get a chance to explain when I send you the transcript how they affected you but to me, it seems like it would but I'm not you. I know how I am when I'm tired. I just can't think straight, I get angry, I react differently than when I'm level-headed and feel good and sensible about things when I'm not tired and relaxed and what I'm asking you, do you think that affected your testimony to a reasonable extend as far as anger ...
Sandra Pickinpaugh: Well, I was angry, yeah. I was real angry.
Mr. Rosenquist: Well, what about giving into suggestive testimony as far as saying things or embellishing things or you know, how should I put it? Overemphasizing things that you would normally not do. Have I totally confused you?
Sandra Pickinpaugh: No, it's not that. All I can tell you is like I said. When I got up there, I was tired I just wanted to go home. My husband couldn't come with me, I was upset about that because he couldn't come. I had problems back at the house and I was sick to death with dealing with these people and when they hit me with these questions that I wasn't prepared for it was just like, yes, no, get me out of here.
Mr. Rosenquist: Would you describe yourself as being in an exhausted stage or just tired?
Sandra Pickinpaugh: I was exhausted!
ANOTHER CALL CAME IN AND TAPE ENDED

Mr. Rosenquist: Okay. I'm sorry. Where was I? Exhaustion, the trip. Shoot, now I forgot. Just to finish up on the emphasis the --
You feel like they, so in other words, how should I put it? They put enough pressure on, but see what I can't understand is how they knew you were gonna say the things you were going to say.
Sandra Pickinpaugh: Yeah.
Mr. Rosenquist: Then you are saying there's no way they really knew about that?
Sandra Pickinpaugh: Now from me because we never really, like you said, in the interview.
Mr. Rosenquist: Well, could they have gotten it from your dad? I mean your dad certainly --
Sandra Pickinpaugh: Oh, I'm sure anybody he could have gotten them from because I was always calling home to complain about her. My step-parents knew an awful lot about her.
Mr. Rosenquist: Oh, well, see that's okay. That answers my question. In other words, I'm sure then that Dottie got the information from your dad, but then your dad says, well you know, I wasn't around or in, can't really testify, so he knew he had to get you there. Okay, well that makes a lot of sense then. Any other kind of pressures or abuses that you can think of right off hand?
Sandra Pickinpaugh: Well, like I said that was enough for me. I couldn't take anymore.
Mr. Rosenquist: Yeah.
Sandra Pickinpaugh: Nobody gave our family a chance to, you know, leave us alone enough so we could get over this properly, get on with our lives. Like I said, my husband and I were only married less than five months when it happened and then, and when my son Cody was born he was colicky, he was up all night so I will be up with him all night and I was mad because I had to induce him.
Mr. Rosenquist: That's what I wanted to ask you. The doctor had to give you a chemical or something or a shot?
Sandra Pickinpaugh: He broke my water. Yeah, we went in on the 14th of August and had him.
Mr. Rosenquist: Then your -- because you had to.
Sandra Pickinpaugh: Well, this is what I did. I did not know so I started calling my dad and he, the first thing he told me to do is to go to my doctor and find out if it means anything. Well, I took him in when I went for my weekly checkup and showed him to my doctor and she said, I'll be right back. She took him with her and she came back and said, when do you want to be induced. So, I'm assuming that either she called somebody and asked, you know, or because she came back and said, we need to schedule for an inducement. When do you want to be induced?
Mr. Rosenquist: Oh, my God.
Sandra Pickinpaugh: And I asked her what day was on the Subpoena and she told me and I said, well, I would like at least a week home with my child before I have to go and do all this stuff and so we, Cody was born on the 14th. We wend in the morning --
Mr. Rosenquist: Was he any --
Sandra Pickinpaugh: -- and broke my water.
Mr. Rosenquist: Was he premature at all?
Sandra Pickinpaugh: Oh, no.
Mr. Rosenquist:  Okay.
Sandra Pickinpaugh: No.
Mr. Rosenquist: So in other words, that was that, did not affect him.
Sandra Pickinpaugh: No, because I mean I was in my ninth month and he was eight pounds at birth, so --
Mr. Rosenquist: Okay, that's good.
Sandra Pickinpaugh: He was healthy but he was, you know, he was I wouldn't say it was not even a week. A little over a week when we had to get on a plane and you know. Traveling with a newborn and a five year old is not exactly a picnic. And, then we get there, he is colicky. He was up all night and then during the next morning, we had to be there in Court at the crack of dawn and then we had to get told how we should look. How we should react when we answer our questions and so on. I felt like a puppet. And I thought, well, fine. Just get up there, let me do my thing and let me get back on the plane and back to Wyoming.
Mr. Rosenquist: Did they talk to you at all before you took the stand as far as the statements you were going to make?
Sandra Pickinpaugh: No. A... came in. He didn't ask me, he didn't tell me specifically she was going to ask me about. What he told me was all he was going to ask me was basically the same things that Saldate interviewed me about.
Mr. Rosenquist:  Uh, hum. I got you.
Sandra Pickinpaugh: And, that's what he said.
Mr. Rosenquist: And then when you took the stand he asked you entirely different things?
Sandra Pickinpaugh: When I took the stand, he stared out to be real sensible. You know. He just asked me what my name was, where I lived, if was married. He understood I had a new job and then - boom - started asking me questions and --
Mr. Rosenquist: But these questions. He had to come up with these questions. The ideas for these questions, somewhere.
Sandra Pickinpaugh: Right.
Mr. Rosenquist:  You figure it's probably your dad or Dorothy. It would have been your dad then.
Sandra Pickinpaugh: It could be Dorothy just as easily too. I mean, I don't know. Everybody knew the relationship I had with Debbie. And like you said, when Debbie was having problems or did something that I didn't like I would call home and say, Dad, she's screwing up. My dad has never helped us good. He never, you know. His reasoning is we are grown-up adults and we know where the front door is, that it swings both ways and don't come bother me with your problems and that's how he has always been.
Mr. Rosenquist: So, it almost had to have been your dad then, if Dorothy didn't come into the picture until halfway through trial.
Sandra Pickinpaugh: See, I don't remember Dorothy even, it was like ... I remember them being a rush to get her. It would have to been midway through the trial because ... to get her, and she was going to be like the last witness. Like, and, I remember something from or -- I can't remember if it was my dad or it was somebody from the victim witness -- telling me that she was just going to be icing on the cake and that is why they wanted to use her last. And I do believe she was the last one to testify.
Mr. Rosenquist: Did they, what about misleading you as to the evidence they had against Debbie. Did they --
Sandra Pickinpaugh: At the time, I mean, it was considered misleading because, like I said, these are police officers, these are people you believe in.
Mr. Rosenquist: What did they tell you? Maybe that's where I should --
Sandra Pickinpaugh: They told me that Debbie had confessed first of all. Then my parents, my dad and Maureen got a transcript of the confession which Dorothy now has in her possession. And, they told me that they found some evidence in her purse and turned out to be bullets. And they told me, or Saldate told me, that en route from Florence to Phoenix, that Debra wanted to trade a sexual favor or him to let her go by saying nobody will find out, and Debra also told Saldate that she needed to get back to work, that it was real important. She couldn't screw up this job and if he would let her go, she promised that she would show up for the hearing and she said that she would be willing to be sterilized as a form of punishment because she didn't want anymore kids anyway. These were things that Saldate told me the day he came to my house.
Mr. Rosenquist: Uh-huh.
Sandra Pickinpaugh: He also, I have to think because there were so many other things, ugh. I was also told the day he interviewed me that when Debbie was at the country (should read : county), that she was telling everybody, because everybody -- I guess other inmates or whatever -- giving her a hard time and she screamed back. Yes, I did it and I'd do it again ! So I mean, in my opinion, it's like, well, how much clearer can you get?
Mr. Rosenquist: Uh hum. What else did he say? Can you think of anything else?
Sandra Pickinpaugh: Oh God. You know, I have a journal of notes somewhere because every time he would call, I would take notes on all this stuff.
Mr. Rosenquist: Boy, that would be critical. I'll tell you, if you could put that down.
Sandra Pickinpaugh: I just moved into a house and I really don't know off the top of my head where it's at. And besides, I would have to ask my husband because he has a better memory than I do. There are so many things that just kind of put the nail on the coffin, so to speak. Because these things and he -- most of the things he told me, he told me the day he came to the house. He told me that she had tried to seduce him when he was trying to get her confession, sterilization, the works, oh -- insurance. The insurance. He said that on the route from my dad's house into town which is about, I don't know, about three or four miles maybe. She had told him that if he would not say anything, because he told me she had started confession and they were not even out of my dad's driveway, when she started confession.
Mr. Rosenquist:  Oh, he said that?
Sandra Pickinpaugh: Yeah. And he said that en route from my dad's house into town, she had said that if he would not tell anybody else, that she would see that he get compensated for it. And also, when she finished this confession, she told that she felt much better she had been hiding the secret for a long time. Oh, and he also told me that she had tried two times, one of which my mom and Alex were there ...
Mr. Rosenquist:  Uh, hum.
Sandra Pickinpaugh: ... that she had attempted and said in the confession that she had put cyanide in his cereal one morning, and then a second time, that they actually went out to the site to do it, but there was too much traffic.
Mr. Rosenquist: Uh huh. It is really interesting. Can you remember anything he said about the insurance?
Sandra Pickinpaugh: No. That is the only that I remember him saying because he asked me. Did you know about any insurance polices? I told him I know was my dad keeps polices on all the kids. Because he jokes that we are always living from one place to another. If one of our kids dies, who is going to bury them ? That is my dad's attitude. So, I knew he had insurance on all the boys.
Mr. Rosenquist: But he did say that she started confessing as soon as they picked her up at your dad's house?
Sandra Pickinpaugh: Right. He said that and see what my --
Mr. Rosenquist: Was that confession to him or to ...?
Sandra Pickinpaugh: Yeah, but you know the thing I can't figure out is there was a third person there.
Mr. Rosenquist: Right, Mills.
Sandra Pickinpaugh: He was driving the car and nothing was ever. He was never questioned. He was never brought to the stand.
Mr. Rosenquist: Well, you know because that was a lie. He was picked, Debbie was picked up at the house. No, Debbie was brought, let me see. Debbie was picked up at the house by a local police officer who brought her to this infirmary where Saldate and another detective met her.
Sandra Pickinpaugh: Now see that, that was not what I was told --
Mr. Rosenquist: Yeah. I know but that is what happened. And, I think Jan Throbe (sic) was involved in that one, where the other in fact maybe she was the one. In fact, she might have been the one, I have to check the record, but I know one thing for sure that Saldate did not pick her up at the house. That he, nothing happened until he went into the room with her.
Sandra Pickinpaugh: You see, I was down there because my ... when they came to pick her up at the house, my step-mom called my dad, and my dad was down at the legion and my dad called Jan, and told Jan, I can't go down with her. You go down because you are a female and make sure nothing happens to her.
Mr. Rosenquist:  Ah, she did a lot of good.
( ... )


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Sunday, 01-Feb-2009 03:13:52 CET