September 12th, 1990
(begin of trial, examination)
BY MR. LEVY:
Noel Levy: Tell the jury your name.
Armando Saldate: Armando Saldate, Jr.
Noel Levy: How long had you been on the Phoenix Police Department before you retired?
Armando Saldate: About 21 years ...
(...)
Noel Levy: Have you conducted interviews of both male and female suspects in the past?
Armando Saldate: Certainly.
Noel Levy: Approximately how many?
Armando Saldate: Two hundred, 200 plus.
Noel Levy: While you have been with the homicide detail, approximately how many?
Armando Saldate: Fifty plus, 75 maybe.
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Comment: This looks straightforward, but it is in fact unfair. SALDATE had the experience he testified to, but his career was filled with a shocking list of misconduct. But the defense was not allowed to ask him about any of this, as we will see later. Thus the State was allowed to portray SALDATE to the jury as a veteran police officer with a spotless record - and nothing could be further from the truth.
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(...)
Noel Levy: Do you find -- have you found in interviewing a suspect whether, for example, a tape recorder presents an obstacle in ascertaining the truth from the suspect?
Armando Saldate: Definitely.
Noel Levy: Have you ever analyzed the reason?
Armando Saldate: Let me give you an example. I'm not very comfortable with this mike in front of my mouth as I'm speaking. It's a situation where I'm there to obtain an interview. I'm there to write down what that person is telling me, her truth, that person's truth, his, hers, as that person sees it. Many times, if you involve some
mechanical -- something mechanical there, it turns out to be an object of attention. So my general -- we are referring to technique again. I would rather not, but -- I would rather look directly at a person. I would rather have that person look directly at me. I want that person's full attention because I'm going to give that person full attention. I think that the tape recorder sometimes keeps a person from being as open or from being as comfortable as that person would be without it. Therefore, you are not going to be able to make that person comfortable; therefore, you are not going to be comfortable; and therefore, you are not going to get a good interview.
Noel Levy: Detective Saldate, are you aware whether suspects have certain rights, inclusive of constitutional rights, in regard to various types of interviews?
Armando Saldate: Certainly.
Noel Levy: For example, if a suspect is neither under custody nor under arrest, to your awareness and your experience, does that person require, for example, that Miranda rights be given merely because you wish to ask some questions?
Armando Saldate: No.
Noel Levy: However, if that person is in custody or the equivalent, under arrest, does that situation then change?
Armando Saldate: Definitely.
Noel Levy: - And what is the change?
Armando Saldate: That person is in custody and, for that reason, I think the obligation is for that officer to advise that person of his Miranda rights, to advise that person of certain rights to remain silent, the right to have an attorney present, and other rights that are listed on the rights card, which I would always use that's supplied by the Phoenix Police Department. And I think it's our obligation as police officers to do that and I think the law says that.
Noel Levy: If this hypothetical suspect then were to invoke the right to, for example, to an attorney or to remain silent, or both, what has been your procedure of then doing?
Armando Saldate: During my interviews, of course, I take notes. And if a person invokes the right to remain silent, invokes the right to an attorney, I immediately note it. That doesn't necessarily mean that I'm going to stop that person from talking to me, nor does that necessarily mean that I'm going to stop from trying to explain to that person why I'm there, what reasons I have for talking to that person. That person has invoked his rights, that person does not have to talk to me any further. But, of course, I have some obligation to tell that person why they are going to be taken in handcuffs from that room, if that's what is going to
happen, and be arrested. I also have an obligation to that person to give that person an opportunity to tell me what he or she wishes to tell me and not to just immediately say, "Oops, King's X, thank you, I will leave the room". And many occasions I do that.
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Comment: So SALDATE has been for years flouting the constitutional rights of suspects, but he says that is okay because he always self-reports his illegal behavior. And LEVY sees nothing wrong with this unlawful policy.
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(...)
Armando Saldate: We were picked up by a -- or I was picked up by a Pinal County Sheriff's officer who had his red lights on so that to signal the helicopter where to land. He did. I was taken
there -- to, I believe, the Pinal County Jail, or jail facility.
Noel Levy: Was the purpose of going there to interview Debra Milke?
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Comment: It's obvious what LEVY was about to prepare and to question the witness, namely the subject why SALDATE didn't tape-record the interview with Debra Milke. An attack appears to be the best defense ...
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Armando Saldate: Correct.
Noel Levy: Back in Phoenix before you left, were you given any directives as to what you were going to do or how you were going to do it?
Armando Saldate: I was -- it was suggested to me to talk to Debra Milke and to see if I could get her statement recorded.
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Discrepancy #1: "It was suggested to me to talk to Debra Milke ..." There was no mention of arresting her, and that was for a reason. Other than SCOTT'S contradictory, rambling statements as to the involvement of Chris' mother, there were no reasons to suspect Debra Milke as a participant to the killing of Christopher. But - as SALDATE had confirmed in his interview on June 26 - "Debra knew from the very minute I got there that she was under arrest." Later we will see SALDATE squirm when confronted with his contradictory statements. That does not appear to be a coherent, justifiable and substantiated action by the police detective.
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Noel Levy: Who suggested that to you?
Armando Saldate: Sergeant Ontiveros.
Noel Levy: Were you ordered to get a recorded statement or nothing at all?
Armando Saldate: I would never be ordered for something like that.
Noel Levy: Have you ever been in the past?
Armando Saldate: Not ordered, no.
Noel Levy: And were not so ordered this time?
Armando Saldate: Not on this occasion. I have in the past
been -- it's suggested strongly, and even though I complain about it, I do it.
Noel Levy: Did you take a tape recorder with you?
Armando Saldate: No.
Noel Levy: For what reason?
Armando Saldate: I don't have a tape recorder.
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Comment: Not having a tape-recorder may be a circumstance, it is certainly not a reason, especially if people's lives or their freedom are at stake.
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Noel Levy: You were going to the Pinal County Sheriff's Office?
Armando Saldate: Yes.
Noel Levy: And what if an occasion came up whereby you could have recorded it?
Armando Saldate: I will borrow theirs.
Noel Levy: At this point in time were you given any additional instructions, such as just to interview her or not to arrest her or anything along that line?
Armando Saldate: That's not within the scope of a supervisor'
in homicide. He doesn't tell you when to arrest someone.
Discrepancy #2: Again SALDATE directly contradicts his statements made during the Voluntariness Hearing, where he said pertaining to the interrogation of ROGER SCOTT : "But I'm not foolish, I'm just a detective. I have superiors. They make up their decisions and, of course, I have to follow them." It is strange that the detective cannot give a consistent explanation of when and how he decided to arrest a suspect in a high-profile murder case.
But in fact, as we have learned from another police report that detectives HAMRICK and DiMODICA already knew that Debra would be arrested when they left Phoenix in the afternoon that day. At that time her arrest was preliminary decided and solely based on ROGER SCOTT'S contradictory ramblings.
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He supervises a case, he makes sure you are doing the job right, but he doesn't tell you how to do the job because you are expected to know how to do the job when you get there. And, of course, he wouldn't tell me that.
Noel Levy: Okay. Now, back to Florence. Tell the jury when you got on the ground and started to go into the Pinal Sheriff's Office complex there, what occurred.
Armando Saldate: I was escorted -- never being there before, I was escorted through some doors by a uniformed officer. I was then told that Debra was at a room down the hall and that it was a sick bay room, a medical room where they take care of, I guess, prisoners when they are ill or have a slight injury.
Comment: That's true. According to DETECTIVE HAMICK'S police record Debra had arrived at the Pinal County Sheriff's Office with her acquaintance JANET FROEBE at approximately 6.35 p.m. According to SALDATE'S own report he made contact with Debra at 7.53 p.m., and therefore the two women had waited on the detective for approximately one hour and seventeen minutes.
It should also - and again - be noted that Debra had been confronted with the name of ROGER SCOTT during the interview with DETECTIVE DAVS, at noon that day, almost six and a half hour prior to arriving at the Pinal County Sheriff's Office. She would have had all time in the world to take refuge, if "the conspiracy" - as alleged by prosecutor Noel Levy and Armando Saldate - were true.
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Noel Levy: Did you pick the place or did they?
Armando Saldate: No. They picked it.
Noel Levy: So did you see Debra Milke?
Armando Saldate: I walked into the room. The door was open. I noticed that Detective Hamrick was standing just west of the door and he advised me or directed me that Debra was in that room and pointed to the room. As I approached the door, I heard some chuckling.
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Comment: As is SALDATE'S habit, he spices his story with made-up prejudicial details, trying to tell the jury that Debra was joking around while her child was missing. Both Debra and JANET FROEBE resolutely deny that there was any "chuckling" in the room.
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I don't know whose chuckling. I entered the room. I saw two women there. I asked for Debra Milke. And the other lady looked at Debra and I advised her who I was. I asked her to step outside and to talk to Detective Hamrick. I then closed the door, went up to a desk that Debra was sitting next to, sitting on a chair next to the desk, at the end of the desk.
And then I assumed the position of another chair which was actually in the middle of the desk where that chair actually belongs.
I stood there momentarily. I told her who I was.
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Comment: Please pay attention to this point: Here the former police detective claims "I told her who I was". Later on we will learn about a different scenario.
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I told her that I was investigating the disappearance of her son. I then sat on the chair, moved the chair directly in front of Debra and began talking to her.
Noel Levy: Did she acknowledge that she was Debra Milke?
Armando Saldate: Yes.
Noel Levy: Had you ever seen her before?
Armando Saldate: No.
Noel Levy: Do you see the same Debra Milke in the courtroom today?
Armando Saldate: Yes, I do.
Noel Levy: If so, would you identify her by clothing or whatever else and where she is sitting?
Armando Saldate: She is the young female that's sitting next
to Mr. Ray wearing the multicolored aqua-blue, blue-purple dress.
MR. LEVY: May the record show the identification?
THE COURT: Yes.
MR. LEVY: Thank you.
BY MR. LEVY:
Noel Levy: Does she look any different today than she did back in the evening of December 3rd of 1989?
Armando Saldate: Not really.
Noel Levy: When you initially began your interview of her, how was her composure, to your observation?
Armando Saldate: She was very calm.
Noel Levy: Did you have her sit down?
Armando Saldate: Yes.
Noel Levy: Did you sit down?
Armando Saldate: I sat down in that chair that I pulled up
close to her.
Noel Levy: What are the first things you discussed with her and her responses?
Armando Saldate: I told her that she was -- that I was there and we had found her son and that we found him in a desert area and that he had been shot.
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Discrepancy #3: Not accurate and in conflict with his testimony on September 10th at the Voluntariness Hearing. As could be ascertained it took defense attorney KEN RAY thirteen (!) repeated questions until SALDATE would eventually admit that his initial words to Debra were: "We found your son, he was murdered, and you are under arrest". Here, at trial and under oath, questioned by prosecutor NOEL LEVY, he again avoided telling the true version.
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Noel Levy: Did she make a response?
Armando Saldate: I believe she started saying in an excited
manner, "What, what", and sort of yelled and moaning and crying, or she seemed to try crying. I was looking directly at her. I was no more than 12 to 18 inches away from her, but I saw no tears. I then told her that I wasn't there to tolerate this, I was there to interview her, to get the truth. And she began to cry. And I told her -- or try to cry. I never saw tears. So I -- she was making noises and I told her to be quiet. I told her that she was under arrest for the murder of her son.
Comment: Here SALDATE suggested that Debra was acting in order to justify her arrest. Allegedly the lack of tears was his reason to inform Debra Milke that she was under arrest; her 'feigning crying'. Again (as we saw with Discrepancy #3) he told different versions of the proceedings in that room during the interview.
The scenario told here - under oath and in front of the jury - is provably false. The police reports filed by detectives DiMODICA and HAMRICK show that SALDATE knew he was going to arrest Debra before he went in to interview her.
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I told her that, beyond that, I wanted her to remain calm and quiet because I was going to read her her rights.
I then removed a card from my badge case, which I already had out, of course, because I had identified myself. I removed that card. I read those rights to Debra Milke. And she at this point was calm.
Noel Levy: Could you share with the jury what rights you read to her?
Armando Saldate: Well, I have a rights card in the other badge
case I now carry, if you would like me to remove it.
Noel Levy: It's the rights card with the language that you read her?
Armando Saldate: Yes. It's a Phoenix Police Department rights card.
Noel Levy: Could you share with the jury what rights you told her?
Armando Saldate: Can I remove the card?
Noel Levy: Please do so.
Armando Saldate: It's not the same badge case.
I told her that, as she sat there : "You have the right to remain silent. Anything you say can be used against you in a court of law. You have the right to the presence of an attorney to assist you prior to questioning and to be with you during questioning if you so desire. If you cannot afford an attorney, you have the right to have an attorney appointed for you prior to questioning." And "Do you understand these rights?"
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Comment: The issue of reading the Miranda Rights to Debra are a crucial point, of legal and factual importance. One reason is that an individual's rights are violated if not properly "mirandized". Here SALDATE told the scenario including reading the Miranda Rights to Debra in a proper and lawful way. Debra herself says that she was crying and sobbing hard when SALDATE read her her rights, and indeed she confirmed: "He read me the Miranda Rights again and after asking me if I understood and I said, 'Yes.'". She had no reason to deny the reading of her rights, because she hasn't done anything wrong or ever been in trouble with the law.
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Noel Levy: Did she respond?
Armando Saldate: She responded first by moving her head in an
up-and-down motion. However, I felt that wasn't enough and I told her that I needed her response verbally and she responded, "Yes".
Noel Levy: To this point was any discussion made -- well, before I ask you that -- withdraw.
My question is : What was her composure at the time you read her her rights and when she responded?
Armando Saldate: Her composure was at that point different
than when it began. That's because I had told her that I wanted her to remain quiet, calm, and she did. And, of course, after she responded "Yes", then she began -- made noises and was trying to cry. And we proceeded from there.
Noel Levy: Did you see any tears again?
Armando Saldate: I never saw any tears.
Noel Levy: Did the point ever come up of recording this particular interview?
Armando Saldate: It did. I told her that I was there to get the truth and just the truth. I told her I wasn't going to tolerate any lies. I asked her if she was going to tell me the truth and going to tell me what happened from her standpoint now, and I explained to her that I wanted her to tell me what had happened, again from her standpoint, but I also wanted her -- I did not want her to minimize her involvement at all. During this time that I'm speaking this, she is saying, "Well, do you need to know, what do you need to know". I'm continuing to tell her that I was there for the truth. And she said -- I asked, "Are you going to tell me what happened now", and she said she was.
Noel Levy: What about the recorder?
Armando Saldate: At that point when she said she was, I asked her, "Can I tape record this interview?" And she said, "No; isn't it enough to talk to you?" I said "Fine."
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Comment: To summarize the proceedings for the observer: SALDATE was alone in that room with Debra. He did not have a tape-recorder with him but assumed the Pinal County Sheriff's Office would have one, if needed and he would have had to break off the interview to go searching for a tape-recorder. Would you, as an observer, ask to
tape-record an interview, without making sure a recorder could be obtained? And - as we also learned from SALDATE'S testimony at the Voluntariness hearing - he alleged "That's one of the mechanical things of the interview that would be at the end of the supplemental," but as we could see none of his other reports contains such a "mention of technicalities" at the end.
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Noel Levy: Did she then tell
you -- was that the extent of your conversation and her responses to that point?
Armando Saldate: Yes.
Noel Levy: Now, just to jump in a general way from then to the rest of the interview, did she ever invoke her right to remain silent?
Armando Saldate: Never.
Noel Levy: Did she ever invoke her right to counsel by asking for an attorney?
Armando Saldate: Absolutely not.
Noel Levy: Did she simply respond to you, "What do you want to know", and then did she begin to tell you what happened?
Armando Saldate: She began to tell me a version of what I guess she expected me to believe.
Noel Levy: What did she start off saying to you?
Armando Saldate: She told me that she had had trouble with her son, something to the effect that she was upset with him because he was going to turn out like his father, an alcoholic, a drug abuser, in jail. She had made these comments to her roommate, Jim Styers, and then commented that, of course, she didn't realize that Jim would ever hurt the child. I immediately, of course, told her that wasn't the truth and I told her I wasn't going to tolerate that, that I wasn't there to listen to lies, nor did I have the time. I told her that I wanted the truth. And then we continued on.
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Comment: SALDATE says that "of course" Debra wasn't telling the truth. On what basis? All he had was SCOTT'S rambling statement, which was almost completely a self-serving lie (as the interview of ROBERT E. JOHNSON shows) - though SALDATE believed it whole, probably because he was the one who got the statement out of SCOTT.
Another possibility is that SALDATE himself suggested to SCOTT that he claim he was solely the driver in order to dump the major guilt on the others, JIM STYERS and Debra Milke. This scenario increasingly appears to be likely considering SCOTT'S statements at his own trial. SALDATE'S story is that he came in order to interview Debra, that he immediately knew "knew" she's guilty, told her he "wouldn't tolerate any lies", and she instantly gave a detailed confession - all in about 30 minutes, except he conveniently "forgot" to get any signed confession or anything to verify his story of how he "solved" this major murder case.
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Noel Levy: Did she make a response?
Armando Saldate: She did.
Noel Levy: Did you take notes?
Armando Saldate: Yes, I did.
Noel Levy: Did you reduce this interview to a typed statement?
Armando Saldate: Yes, I did.
Noel Levy: Would it refresh your recollection from time to time to refer to that statement for purposes of
accuracy before testifying in response to questioning?
Armando Saldate: Of course. If you are referring to any quoted remarks in my supplemental, I would definitely like to read them from my supplement because I believe they are very important.
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Comment: SALDATE now read "quotes" from his report that were very damaging to Debra. But Debra Milke steadfastly maintains that all that these "quotes" are twisted, taken out of context, or outright fabrications. A comparison of SALDATE'S report of his interview with SANDY PICKINPAUGH with the transcript of that interview - the only place where, by sheer happenstance, we have an objective basis to judge the accuracy and honesty of his reports - shows that the dishonest tactics Debra claimed of the detective were indeed his stock-in-trade. So, it's no wonder SALDATE wanted to read these prejudicial "quotes" to the jury - he was showing pride of authorship.
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Noel Levy: Do you have your supplement?
Armando Saldate: Yes, I do.
Noel Levy: Could you put it in front of you?
Armando Saldate: Sure.
We are referring to the second paragraph, I believe, of the second page, the last sentence. Is that what your reference is?
Noel Levy: Yes. Is that a quoted portion that you put in your report in quote marks?
Armando Saldate: After I told her that it was her responsibility to tell me the truth from her standpoint, she then made this remark, which I noted in quotes on my notes and then transferred them, of course, to my supplemental.
The statement she made: "Look, I just didn't want him to grow up like his father. I'm not a crazy person. I'm not an animal. I just didn't want him to grow up like that." End of quote.
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Comment: A quoted statement sure sounds very convincing in a court room, but, as we have learned about his technique of twisting statements and making up allegations, that doesn't actually mean much. Debra indeed said (and never denied it) that she didn't want CHRISTOPHER to grow up and be like his father, and that was her reason to divorce. SALDATE used the core of the statement and made it sound like that was her reason to incite someone else for the murder of her son.
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Noel Levy: Did she continue on?
Armando Saldate: She continued on, but no quotes at that point.
Noel Levy: Did you pick the point in time with reference to when it was that she was going to discuss with you what happened?
Armando Saldate: No.
Noel Levy: Did she?
Armando Saldate: Yes.
Noel Levy: How? What did she say?
Armando Saldate: She then began in a narrative form to talk to me.
Noel Levy: Was she calm? Was she crying? Was she yelling? Was she excited?
Armando Saldate: She was calm. She was somewhat nervous,
shaking a little bit. But she began by telling me about her high school days. She told me that while in high school she was very popular. She told me that she had very high esteem, she really liked herself in high school. She said that she was in love with life until one critical point when she said she met her ex-husband, Mark Milke, and at that point something just happened. He was involved in drugs, alcohol, and
her -- apparently her whole life changed, from her perspective.
Noel Levy: What else did she tell you?
Armando Saldate: We discussed the facts of -- we continued on from there, how they got married. We continued on about how she was taking birth control pills. We talked about the fact that Chris Milke was a mistake. We spoke about -- or she spoke about the fact that she, when pregnant, had gone many times to check on the fetus to see if it was somewhat abnormal. She discussed getting abortion. She in fact --
MR. RAY: Your Honor, I object to the characterization of facts.
THE COURT: Sustained. Continue on with your answer, sir.
THE WITNESS: She talked about abortion. She said at one point she even made an appointment, but she said that she broke the appointment and felt that it would be too painful.
BY MR. LEVY:
Noel Levy: Did she discuss with you, in relation to children, why it was she took birth control pills?
Armando Saldate: She felt she would not be a very good mother and didn't want kids.
(...)
BY MR. LEVY:
Noel Levy: Did Debra Milke ever indicate whether she went with Jim Styers in an attempt to kill her son?
MR. RAY: Objection.
THE COURT: Overruled.
THE WITNESS: She told me that she did go on several occasions with Jim, but for several reasons they could -- would come back and Jim would not do that.
BY MR. LEVY:
Noel Levy: And if it would refresh your recollection to read the last paragraph of page 3 before you further testify, I invite you to do so.
Armando Saldate: It would certainly refresh my recollection if
I could. I apologize. Debra said that she only went once with Jim.
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Comment: Oh sure, now it's only at one occasion ...
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Noel Levy: Did she continue to share with you what she meant by going out with Jim?
Armando Saldate: She referred to it -- she said she went out with Jim once and referred to it that they went out to, I believe I quoted in my supplement, do it, but that something happened and then they returned with Chris. I asked her what "do it" meant. She explained to me that "do it" meant to kill Chris.
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Comment: Please also note this: In the afternoon of December 3rd, 1989, ROGER SCOTT told SALDATE that Debra went along on one attempt to kill CHRIS, but when SCOTT was interviewed by MILLS that evening, his attempt to tell MILLS about this alleged incident was completely incoherent, and MILLS gave up trying to ask him about it. This would corroborate the assumption stated earlier that it was basically SALDATE who suggested to ROGER what to say, maybe promising him to get off with a considerable low charge. ROGER was then eager to repeat that scenario but failed and confused broad parts of it. By the time SCOTT had his interrogation recorded by DET. MILLS, SALDATE was talking with Debra, and - lo and behold - he claims she spontaneously "confessed" to this same exact incident - very neat and convenient. But SCOTT is never able to give a remotely logical account of this incident, and Debra unwaveringly insists she never confessed - because she had nothing to do with her son's murder. This highly suspicious dovetailing of unverifiable and illogical stories adds even more weight to the evidence that SALDATE'S statements are not to be trusted.
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Noel Levy: Did she share with you after that what it was that the plan was?
Armando Saldate: The plan then focused on Roger, or Jim and Roger taking out Chris, doing it, being killing Chris.
Noel Levy: Who did she say, if she did, was to do it?
Armando Saldate: Jim Styers was to kill Chris, or do it.
Noel Levy: And then?
Armando Saldate: Then both of them were going to return, or
go to -- I apologize -- not return, go to the Metro Center and report Chris missing.
Noel Levy: Did she indicate to you whether she ever knew what exactly was going to happen to Chris by Jim doing it, other than to kill?
Armando Saldate: She told me she never knew the method that Jim Styers was going to employ to kill her son Chris.
Noel Levy: On Saturday morning when -- did she tell you and describe to you the Saturday morning, December 2, 1989, what she was planning with regard to Jim and Roger?
Armando Saldate: That Saturday morning she said that Jim woke up and told her that they were planning to do it today, kill Chris. She said that Chris got himself dressed and that Jim told her that he was going to take Chris and they would then pick up Roger and then do it.
September 13, 1990
(trial testimony, examination)
BY MR. LEVY:
Noel Levy: Was she then transported back to the Phoenix Police Department?
Armando Saldate: Yes, she was.
Noel Levy: In what kind of vehicle?
Armando Saldate: It was a uniformed Pinal County Sheriff's
vehicle with a screen and glass enclosure, safety glass between the back seat and the front seat.
Noel Levy: Was she handcuffed?
Armando Saldate: No, he was not.
Noel Levy: Was she able to get out?
Armando Saldate: No. Nor was I.
Noel Levy: And was there something about how you can't get out of the back of a police car?
Armando Saldate: Police cars, they are not equipped with door handles on the inside. Therefore, if anyone needs to get out of the back seat, someone has to allow them out through the outside.
Noel Levy: Is there any particular reason you didn't handcuff her after the conclusion of the interview and ride back to Phoenix?
Armando Saldate: The reason that you handcuff a person is
if that person is a danger to yourself, as a police officer. And it was obvious she was not a danger to me.
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Discrepancy #6: Really? SALDATE'S statement sounds logical, yet - when we look at it closely - it's just a futile attempt to rationalize his tactics. We're not talking about a case of domestic violence or somebody stealing some ice cream. We're talking about an alleged conspiracy to commit murder, first-degree murder, child abuse and kidnapping (the charges against Debra Milke). SALDATE'S report does not mention any search of her clothing or any body search, and therefore she could've as well had a hidden knife or a gun. If the reasons she was tried for were true, his statement makes no sense and she could have indeed been a danger to him. The actual reason he didn't handcuff her was that he didn't want any attention called to Debra. If people saw her being led away in handcuffs, word of her arrest could have spread much more quickly, and all events would have moved much faster - and SALDATE would have had far less time to invent his story than the three days he took to write his report. He knew she didn't (and doesn't) have the criminal energy he led everyone to believe.
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Noel Levy: Did you have any conversations on the way back?
Armando Saldate: We did.
Noel Levy: Did she express any concerns about the fate of her son Chris during the entire ride back?
Armando Saldate: No, she did not.
Noel Levy: Did she express concerns about her own fate?
Armando Saldate: She did.
Noel Levy: Generally, what?
Armando Saldate: We spoke about the fact about getting out, probation, we spoke about the fact of her family, we spoke about the fact about her dad, and she asked me several things about what would happen as far as, you know, her incarceration.
Noel Levy: Did she ask you to do anything for her own fate?
Armando Saldate: She did.
(...)
MR. LEVY continued examining former Phoenix Police detective ARMANDO SALDATE, and later on the cross-examination by Debra Milke's defense counsel, MR. RAY, began:
BY MR. RAY:
Ken Ray: Doesn't your training and experience tell you that it is better to conduct an interview in places where you are comfortable as opposed to where the individual is comfortable?
Armando Saldate: That's correct.
(...)
Ken Ray: Isn't it true that the individual to be interrogated should be placed in the least comfortable position?
Armando Saldate: No. Not as far as I'm concerned.
Ken Ray: They should not be interrogated on familiar -- in a familiar location such as their home?
Armando Saldate: Oh, correct.
Ken Ray: Or their own car?
Armando Saldate: Correct.
Ken Ray: And there is a reason for that, isn't there?
Armando Saldate: Yes.
Ken Ray: Would you agree, in connection with the reason, with the following statement : "To be alone with the subject is essential to prevent distraction and to deprive him of any outside support".
Armando Saldate: I would agree with some of that, yes.
Ken Ray: Would you agree with the following statement : "The aura of confidence in his guilt undermines his will to resist and merely confirms the preconceived story the police seek to have him describe".
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Comment: KEN RAY was trying to make this point: SALDATE claimed the reason he never uses a tape-recorder is that it makes the suspect uncomfortable. Yet it is standard practice for police to interview suspects in circumstances that make them ill at ease. A valid point. But LEVY and HENDRIX find a technicality to prevent any more questioning along these lines. RAY is quoting from a standard book on police interrogation techniques, and it is ruled that using a book to challenge SALDATE on the reasons for his techniques is treating him as an "expert witness."
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(...)
Ken Ray: Detective, or Constable, did you have an opportunity to read the highlighted portion that I have read a portion of thus far?
Armando Saldate: Just briefly.
Ken Ray: All right. I would again ask you if you agree or disagree with this statement: "To be alone with the subject is essential to prevent distraction and to deprive him of any outside support. The aura of confidence in his guilt undermines his will to resist and merely confirms the preconceived story the police seek to have him describe. Patience and persistence, at times relentless questioning are implied. To obtain a confession the interrogator must patiently maneuver himself or his query into a position for which the desired objective may be obtained -- attained, rather". Do you agree with that, sir?
MR. LEVY: I would object to the question as being a statement, not a question, as being conclusory on someone else's observations, and also the form of the question is highly prejudicial in that it suggests certain conclusions of this person-author about a suspect, such and such an aura or location, that necessarily such and such will follow. It's also compound, has many parts to it, and it is, I think, irrelevant as well. And then it appears to call for his opinion as some kind of expert opinion and as though to tie him into someone else that he is trying to insert into this trial by asking such a question. I just think it's generally improper.
THE COURT: The objection is sustained.
Mr. Ray, you were treating Mr. Saldate as an expert witness. He is not here as an expert witness, he is here as a fact witness.
(...)
Ken Ray: Isn't it true that it's accepted standard and procedure when transporting a subject to transport them in handcuffs?
Armando Saldate: At times, yes.
Ken Ray: In your initial interview with Roger Scott, it was not recorded?
Armando Saldate: No.
Ken Ray: You were at 620 West Washington before going to 99th and Happy Valley Road?
Armando Saldate: That is correct.
Ken Ray: Subsequently his statement was recorded?
Armando Saldate: That is correct.
Ken Ray: Jim Styers had an interview, did he not, with a detective?
Armando Saldate: Yes.
Ken Ray: And that interview was recorded, was it not?
Armando Saldate: I believe so.
Ken Ray: Debra Milke's interview was not recorded, was it?
Armando Saldate: No, it was not.
Ken Ray: You have testified that a tape recorder is an obstacle to getting the truth. Is that what you testified to yesterday?
Armando Saldate: No.
Ken Ray: You testified yesterday that you are there to obtain an interview and look for the truth as that person sees it?
Armando Saldate: That's correct.
Ken Ray: You testified that a tape recorder prevents a person from being comfortable?
Armando Saldate: Most times, yes.
Ken Ray: Isn't it true, as you have testified to today, that it is to your advantage as the interviewer or the
interrogator to have that person uncomfortable, in your surroundings that they are not familiar with? Is that what you testified to, sir?
Armando Saldate: I testified at times, yes.
Ken Ray: You indicated that if the tape recorder is there, it prevents the individual from being comfortable and, therefore, you will not get a good interview. Is that your testimony?
Armando Saldate: Yes.
Ken Ray: It also precludes anyone from hearing the exact content of that interview, isn't that true?
Armando Saldate: Correct.
Ken Ray: And it is your practice as a detective during the years that you were a detective not to utilize a tape recorder?
Armando Saldate: That is correct.
Ken Ray: You would take copious
notes --
Armando Saldate: That's correct.
Ken Ray: -- of the interview?
Armando Saldate: That's correct.
Ken Ray: And then reduce them to some form of narrative supplemental?
Armando Saldate: That is correct.
Ken Ray: You would not, in preparing your report, transcribe your notes verbatim into the report?
Armando Saldate: No.
Ken Ray: So, in other words, what the report -- what we get in the report is not a duplicate copy of your notes?
Armando Saldate: Unless where it's quoted.
Ken Ray: All right. Only those quotes that you select as the writer of the supplement, isn't that right?
Armando Saldate: That is correct.
Ken Ray: And those notes that are prepared are destroyed upon the conclusion of the preparation of the typewritten narrative report?
Armando Saldate: That is correct.
Ken Ray: And then, in your years of experience, you have never produced those notes, have you?
Armando Saldate: I have not.
Ken Ray: During the course of your testimony on direct examination you have related any number of facts and statements of Debra Milke which were not contained in quotes in your report, is that correct?
Armando Saldate: I don't understand that question.
Ken Ray: You have related over the course of several hours on direct examination what it is that Debra Milke said, whether it be specifically in quoted form or in paraphrased form, as you recall it.
Armando Saldate: That is correct.
Ken Ray: Nonetheless, you are reciting to this Court her statements, is that right?
Armando Saldate: You are absolutely right.
Ken Ray: And were those statements on your notes?
Armando Saldate: Those were noted on my notes, yes.
Ken Ray: But they were not reduced into your report? Only selected portions of our notes were quoted in your report, isn't that right?
Armando Saldate: I believe I answered that's correct.
Ken Ray: You testified yesterday that if a person is neither in custody nor under arrest, rights are not required.
Armando Saldate: That's correct.
Ken Ray: Who told you that?
Armando Saldate: It is my understanding.
Ken Ray: And where did you get that understanding, sir?
Armando Saldate: Through written forms from the Phoenix Police Department that I was given and read.
Ken Ray: Part of the guidelines and policy manual?
Armando Saldate: I don't know where you ever got policy manual
and guidelines. We just have items of -- written items that are supplied by the Phoenix Police Department.
(...)
Ken Ray: Was your testimony yesterday, sir, that if the individual is in custody or under arrest, the officer must advise them of their rights?
Armando Saldate: Yes.
Ken Ray: And the rights that you are talking about are the Miranda rights?
Armando Saldate: That is correct.
Ken Ray: Under the Miranda decision?
Armando Saldate: As I understand it, yes.
Ken Ray: You testified yesterday that there is an obligation as an officer to follow that mandate as well as the mandate of the law, is that correct?
Armando Saldate: That's correct.
Ken Ray: You have not always done that, though, have you?
Armando Saldate: I have always done that.
Ken Ray: When an individual is being interrogated by you and he says, "I want to remain silent", what are you going to do?
Armando Saldate: I'm going to duly note it if he wishes to remain that way while in the interview.
Ken Ray: From your understanding of the policies and law with respect to Miranda, isn't it your understanding, sir, that the interview will cease -
Armando Saldate: No.
Ken Ray: - immediately?
Armando Saldate: No.
Ken Ray: Is it some policy or some type of policy or memoranda that you have read that says that it's all right to go ahead and speak to an individual even when they have said, "I wish to remain silent", or words to that effect?
Armando Saldate: No.
Ken Ray: Is it your understanding that if an individual who is being interrogated by you says that he would like to speak to an attorney before answering any questions, or words to that effect, is it your understanding that you cease questioning?
Armando Saldate: No.
Ken Ray: In the past, people that you have interviewed have requested counsel and requested to remain silent and you have continued to interrogate and state your position on things?
Armando Saldate: I have duly noted it and continued my interview, yes.
Ken Ray: When did that - that happened on December 22 of 19 -- strike that -- December 19th, 1987 at approximately 3:40 in the afternoon, isn't that right?
MR. LEVY: I would object on relevancy to this case.
The Court: Sustained.
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Comment: This is a key point. The date and time KEN RAY mentioned was when Detective SALDATE interviewed SHAWN RUNNING EAGLE, as discussed in the Voluntariness Hearing. This was an interview during which SALDATE admitted ignoring RUNNING EAGLE'S invocation of his right to remain silent and his request for a lawyer. This is the one case KEN RAY found of SALDATE'S misconduct - research by attorney ANDERS ROSENQUIST would turn up many more instances of misconduct by the detective. But even here, the jury is not allowed to hear the truth. Levy objects to this line of questioning as "irrelevant" and HENDRIX sustains the objection, hiding the truth about SALDATE from the jury. According to the Judge, SALDATE'S history of deliberately violating the constitutional rights of suspects is not relevant to Debra's claim that the detective violated her rights!
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Ken Ray: You indicated that if they invoke their rights you will note it in the report?
Armando Saldate: Yes, I will.
Ken Ray: What is the purpose of noting it in the report?
Armando Saldate: That's what they said. I want to make sure that's in the report.
Ken Ray: But it doesn't mean you will stop the interrogation, correct?
Armando Saldate: I'm there to communicate with that person and I will continue to communicate if they wish.
Ken Ray: But if they have told you they want an attorney or want to remain silent, aren't they communicating to you, sir, they don't care to speak with you any further?
Armando Saldate: They may not fully understand my objectives. They may not understand fully my reasons for being there. That's why I continue to explain that situation.
Ken Ray: Are you suggesting that they may not have fully understood their right to remain silent and their right to invoke those rights?
Armando Saldate: Possibly.
Ken Ray: How is it, then, you can determine to any degree of certainty when an individual does or does not understand their rights?
Armando Saldate: The only method I have is when that person tells me whether they have or whether they do not understand the rights.
Ken Ray: You testified yesterday that it doesn't mean that you will stop explaining why you are
there --
Armando Saldate: That's correct.
Ken Ray: -- after they have invoked all these rights.
Armando Saldate: That's correct.
Ken Ray: Isn't it true, sir, that your motivation under those circumstances is to try to get them to continue to talk?
Armando Saldate: My motivation is to get the truth, sir.
Ken Ray: And in order to get the truth, you need them to continue to talk, isn't that right?
Armando Saldate: In order for me to get the truth as far as they are concerned, from their standpoint, is for them to tell me, yes. That's correct.
(...)
Ken Ray: ...you testified that you must give the individual an opportunity to tell the truth, not say, "Oops, King's X". Do you recall making that statement?
Armando Saldate: Yes, I do.
Ken Ray: And in connection, again, with the same situation of where the individual invoked their rights, you continue talking?
Armando Saldate: That's correct.
Ken Ray: After you read an individual their rights, aren't you giving them that opportunity to talk?
Armando Saldate: Somewhat, yes.
Ken Ray: And if they invoke the right, aren't they declining that opportunity?
Armando Saldate: They may at times.
Ken Ray: And then your continued conversation is to get them to withdraw that exercise of their right, isn't that correct?
Armando Saldate: My continued conversation is to get to the truth. I'm not a judge nor a lawyer.
(...)
Ken Ray: You undertook to interview Mr. Styers?
Armando Saldate: That is correct.
Ken Ray: Detective Mills undertook to interview Roger Scott?
Armando Saldate: That's correct.
Ken Ray: He recorded his interview, did he not?
Armando Saldate: That is incorrect.
Ken Ray: Incorrect or correct?
Armando Saldate: Incorrect.
Ken Ray: He did not record his interview?
Armando Saldate: He did not record his interview.
Ken Ray: Neither did you?
Armando Saldate: Neither did I, yes.
Ken Ray: Did you take copious notes of your interview with Mr. Styers?
Armando Saldate: I took notes, yes.
Ken Ray: Did you then later reduce those to a report?
Armando Saldate: I believe I did.
Ken Ray: Did you save the notes?
Armando Saldate: I did not.
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Comment: Again, here he declared his notes have been destroyed ...
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Ken Ray: Did Detective
Mills -- to your knowledge, did it appear he was taking notes?
Armando Saldate: I wouldn't know. I was not in the room with him.
Ken Ray: But you later entered the room during the course of his interview with Roger Scott?
Armando Saldate: That is correct.
Ken Ray: Did it appear then he had notes he was taking?
Armando Saldate: I'm sure he was, but I didn't notice.
Ken Ray: Okay. Have you ever seen any notes of the interview with Detective Mills?
Armando Saldate: No, I have not.
Ken Ray: You then described yesterday the events that led you to Happy Valley and 99th. You described your route back, and then we get to the point about a helicopter.
Armando Saldate: That's correct.
Ken Ray: And I guess I understand your testimony to be that you had never ridden in a helicopter before?
Armando Saldate: Not a police helicopter.
Ken Ray: Do you know how many helicopters the police have?
Armando Saldate: No, I don't.
Ken Ray: At the time that you were directed to go to Florence, were you aware that there were other officers that were already en route?
Armando Saldate: I was told there was going to be other officers en route.
Ken Ray: To your knowledge, had they already left by the time you received the directive?
Armando Saldate: Yes.
Ken Ray: Do you have a recollection as to how far in advance they were to you?
Armando Saldate: No.
Ken Ray: To your knowledge, are helicopters generally used to conduct police activities in surveillance for the City of Phoenix?
Armando Saldate: I believe so.
Ken Ray: Isn't that their primary purpose and function?
Armando Saldate: I assume so. I don't know.
Ken Ray: And are they generally used to go from one city to another city and thereby be deprived of their use to the City of Phoenix?
Armando Saldate: They did on this occasion. That's all I can testify to.
Ken Ray: Have you ever driven to Florence?
Armando Saldate: Many times.
Ken Ray: It's about an hour to hour-and-a-half drive, is it not?
Armando Saldate: Yes.
Ken Ray: And in a police car with red lights and sirens that time could be cut down considerably, could it not?
Armando Saldate: I don't believe the chief of police would let us do that.
Ken Ray: Nonetheless, it would be true, based upon your experience, you probably could exceed the speed limit and not worry about being picked up, isn't that right?
Armando Saldate: No.
Ken Ray: To your knowledge -- well, strike that. Did you indicate yesterday that you had received a directive from Detective Ontiveros to go to Florence?
Armando Saldate: Detective Sergeant Ontiveros, that's correct.
Ken Ray: Do you have any knowledge or information to suggest that that directive came from even higher than Sergeant -- Detective Sergeant Ontiveros?
Armando Saldate: No. Could have very easily, though.
MR. RAY: May I have a moment, Your Honor?
THE COURT: You may.
BY MR. RAY:
Ken Ray: Did
Sergeant -- Detective Sergeant Ontiveros direct, in connection with his instructions that you go to Florence, direct that you conduct a tape-recorded interview of Debra Milke?
Armando Saldate: He requested that I do so.
Ken Ray: Was it a directive?
Armando Saldate: I don't believe so. May have been. It may have been.
Ken Ray: Did you have reason to believe that someone higher than he in terms of rank instructed that interview?
Armando Saldate: That's very possible.
Ken Ray: Do you know for a fact?
Armando Saldate: No.
Ken Ray: You recall our interview on June 26th, 1990?
Armando Saldate: I do.
Ken Ray: Do you recall being asked the following question commencing on page 9, line 24, at least of the copy that I have.
MR. RAY: And, Your Honor, may I present the Court with the Court's copy?
BY MR. RAY:
Ken Ray: "Question: What supervisor had requested you to record it?" Do you recall your answer?
Armando Saldate: I believe I told you Sergeant Ontiveros.
Ken Ray : "Answer: Sergeant Ontiveros. And I'm sure it was asked of him by someone else higher than him."
Is that correct?
Armando Saldate: That's correct.
Ken Ray: Are you indeed sure?
Armando Saldate: That was just a conclusion I made.
(...)
Ken Ray: Had Detective
Hamrick -- was he one onf the officers that went in advance of you to Florence?
Armando Saldate: He was there.
Ken Ray: And he was awaiting your arrival when you got there?
Armando Saldate: He was.
Ken Ray: And he went and escorted or walked with you into the Pinal County Sheriff's Office?
Armando Saldate: No.
Ken Ray: Was he anywhere nearby at the time you approached the medical office?
Armando Saldate: He was outside the door in the hallway.
Ken Ray: And the door was open at that time?
Armando Saldate: That's correct.
Ken Ray: And it's a solid door. It doesn't have glass in it, doesn't it?
Armando Saldate: I can't recall.
Ken Ray: And two individuals were seated inside this small medical office?
Armando Saldate: Two individuals were inside, yes.
Ken Ray: And Detective Hamrick, did he appear to be speaking to these individuals?
Armando Saldate: No.
Ken Ray: You indicated yesterday that you heard some chuckling.
Armando Saldate: As I approached the door, yes.
Ken Ray: Do you know who was chuckling?
Armando Saldate: No.
Ken Ray: As you then instructed the
person -- well, you tried to find out which one was Debra Milke, isn't that correct?
Armando Saldate: Correct.
Ken Ray: And you were able to identify my client as being one if those two people?
Armando Saldate: As being Debra Milke?
Ken Ray: Yes.
Armando Saldate: Yes.
Ken Ray: And you asked the other person to please step out?
Armando Saldate: That's correct.
Ken Ray: And you directed her to speak with Detective Hamrick, is that right?
Armando Saldate: That's correct.
Ken Ray: And Detective Hamrick and this other woman proceeded to another location within the building, as far as you know?
Armando Saldate: I don't know that.
Ken Ray: All right. Then you entered this room and closed the door behind you?
Armando Saldate: That's correct.
Ken Ray: No other person was in that room with you?
Armando Saldate: That is correct.
Ken Ray: Did you look about the room to see if anyone was there?
Armando Saldate: When I first entered, obviously I spanned the room, located two persons.
Ken Ray: Did you look about the little alcove off to the side?
Armando Saldate: You have asked me before. I don't know of an alcove.
Ken Ray: And at that time Debra was asking you, "Have you got any news," isn't that right?
Armando Saldate: It's absolutely wrong.
Ken Ray: She said nothing to you?
Armando Saldate: Again, that is wrong.
Ken Ray: You indicate in your report, do you not, that "Approximately 1953 hours I explained to Debra that her son Chris had been found in a desert area and that he
had been found shot to death." Is that what you told her?
Armando Saldate: Yes, I did tell her that.
Ken Ray: Is that specifically verbatim what you told her?
Armando Saldate: That's what I told her.
Ken Ray: You didn't put that in quotes?
Armando Saldate: No.
Ken Ray: Is that what you told her?
Armando Saldate: I believe that is what I told her.
Ken Ray: Did you put in your notes specifically what you told her?
Armando Saldate: I may have.
Ken Ray: Did you copy that directly from your notes?
Armando Saldate: I may have.
Ken Ray: You don't know?
Armando Saldate: I believe that's what I told her.
Ken Ray: Your same report indicates that she immediately began to yell, "What, what" and make noises. Is that right?
Armando Saldate: Not quite as dramatic as that, but yes.
Ken Ray: And you immediately respond that you are not going to tolerate this?
Armando Saldate: That's correct.
Ken Ray: Did you use the words "to tolerate"?
Armando Saldate: Yes.
Ken Ray: Were you forceful in your response?
Armando Saldate: No.
Ken Ray: You indicated yesterday in your testimony that you walked in, introduced yourself, advised you were investigating the disappearance, moved a chair in front to be close to her, is that right?
Armando Saldate: That's correct.
Ken Ray: And that at that time you had not advised her of anything other than you were investigating the disappearance?
Armando Saldate: That is correct.
Ken Ray: And she appeared calm at that moment?
Armando Saldate: That's correct.
Ken Ray: And then you made the statement that we just read?
Armando Saldate: That's correct.
Ken Ray: Coupled with that you told her she was under arrest for murder?
Armando Saldate: Shortly thereafter.
MR. RAY: May I have a moment again, Your Honor?
THE COURT: Yes.
BY MR. RAY:
Ken Ray: You testified yesterday that after advising her that her son had been found in a desert area and had been found shot to death, she immediately began to exclaim, "what, what" in an excited fashion.
Armando Saldate: Correct.
Ken Ray: You utilized the words, in trying to characterize what you observed in her, as moaning and crying.
Armando Saldate: Correct.
Ken Ray: Did you use those words?
Armando Saldate: Correct.
Ken Ray: Did you tell her that you were not going to tolerate her excited state before or after you told her she was under arrest?
Armando Saldate: Can I refresh my memory with my report?
Ken Ray: Please.
Armando Saldate: Before.
Ken Ray: You testified yesterday after telling her you weren't going to tolerate this, she began to quiet down.
Armando Saldate: At -- you are missing a little bit in between there, but basically, yes.
Ken Ray: Well, was it immediately that she stopped this excitement and crying, as you testified to, or did it take some time for her to break off?
Armando Saldate: You are asking -- I may have misunderstood the question.
Ken Ray: I will rephrase it, sir. You have just walked into a room. You are a stranger to her, correct?
Armando Saldate: Yes.
Ken Ray: You have never seen this woman before in your life?
Armando Saldate: That's correct.
Ken Ray: You are in a jail environment, are you not?
Armando Saldate: For the most part, yes.
Ken Ray: It's obvious to you, you are in a jail?
Armando Saldate: Yes.
Ken Ray: And you had never been there before?
Armando Saldate: Yes.
Ken Ray: All right. You introduce yourself after telling another person who was there with her to leave and you tell her that her son had been found in the desert shot to death and she immediately responds, "What, what" and excited, moaning and crying. Correct of incorrect?
Armando Saldate: Incorrect.
Ken Ray: Where am I wrong, sir?
Armando Saldate: If I may refresh my memory
with -- or refresh your memory.
Ken Ray: You have no memory, either?
Armando Saldate: Pardon me?
Ken Ray: You can't remember it?
Armando Saldate: I have a memory, but I'm trying to refresh your memory.
As we spoke before, I introduced myself. Debra immediately wanted to know who I was.
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Discrepancy #7: "Debra immediately wanted to know who I was." It's the first time this version comes up. So far SALDATE had always claimed that he had introduced himself, and there was no mention that Debra wanted to know who he was. Again, SALDATE was unable to tell a consistent version of what actually took place.
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And then I introduced myself, told her I was investigating her son's disappearance, and we then went on from there.
Ken Ray: And you moved close to her, pulled a chair up and came face-to-face with her?
Armando Saldate: Yes.
Ken Ray: Is that part of your technique, sir, or your method?
Armando Saldate: If you wish.
Ken Ray: She goes into this moaning and crying, as you described, and tell her, "I'm not going to tolerate that". Are we correct to that point?
Armando Saldate: Yes.
Ken Ray: All right. I believe my question to you was whether or not she immediately broke off this moaning and crying or whether it took a little bit for that to occur.
Armando Saldate: It took no time.
Ken Ray: No time?
Armando Saldate: No time.
Ken Ray: Then you advise her of her rights?
Armando Saldate: Correct.
Ken Ray: And she commences crying again?
Armando Saldate: She tries to, yes.
Ken Ray: That's your opinion, isn't it?
Armando Saldate: Yes, that's my opinion.
Ken Ray: You do not know for a fact?
Armando Saldate: It's my opinion.
Ken Ray: You witnessed moaning and crying, as you testified to, and yet you suggest she is feigning this?
Armando Saldate: She had no tears. She never had tears.
Ken Ray: Are you an expert in tear ducts and things of that nature?
Armando Saldate: No, sir.
Ken Ray: Are you an expert in emotions and being able to differentiate when someone is -- tell when somebody is real and when somebody is faking?
Armando Saldate: I'm just a police officer, sir. I'm not an expert there.
Ken Ray: Yet you are so bold as to say that she was faking, in your opinion?
Armando Saldate: In my opinion.
Ken Ray: You went down there to Florence with the intent to arrest, did you not?
Armando Saldate: To interview her.
Ken Ray: And to arrest?
Armando Saldate: Possibly.
Ken Ray: Had Sergeant Ontiveros suggested you needed to go down there to arrest her?
Armando Saldate: I believe he told me to interview her. He may have said that.
Ken Ray: You recall, again, the interview of June 26th, 1990?
Armando Saldate: Yes, I do.
Ken Ray: Do you recall at page 10, commencing on line 5, being asked the following question: "And Sergeant Ontiveros sent you to Florence for the specific purpose of arresting her?" Do you recall your answer?
Armando Saldate: No, I don't.
Ken Ray: "To interview her?" Do you recall the question, "Just to interview her?"
Armando Saldate: I don't recall that.
Ken Ray: Do you recall the answer to that question?
Armando Saldate: If I may see that, I will probably recall it.
Ken Ray: "Answer : And to arrest her".
Armando Saldate: I don't know that.
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Comment: This is the crucial point of the entire 'alleged confession'. Here SALDATE denied that he had pre-planned to arrest Debra, because the injustice done to her would become very obvious. SCOTT'S statement as to her alleged involvement was too weak to found a substantiated suspicion towards Debra. As we can prove, DET. HAMRICK and DET. DiMODICA already knew - independently - that Debra would be arrested, even before the result of SALDATE'S interview with Debra yielded the seven-pages-report, which later became the basis for her indictment.
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Ken Ray: My question to you, sir, is : Were you given a directive to go down and arrest her or was it your idea to arrest her as you proceeded in that direction?
Armando Saldate: I'm confused. Are you asking whether I said that in that interview or are you asking me whether it was my intention?
Ken Ray: My question to you, sir, again, is : Had you formulated the idea in your mind that you were just
going down to interview her at the time you left or had you formulated in your mind that you were going down to arrest her?
Armando Saldate: I had formulated in my mind I was going to interview her and possibly arrest her.
Ken Ray: But you have no memory today as to whether or not Sergeant Ontiveros gave you a directive to go down there to arrest her?
Armando Saldate: I don't believe he did. I don't recall. He
did tell me to go down there and interview her.
Ken Ray: Did you formulate the idea of arrest as you were en route in the helicopter?
Armando Saldate: No, I did not.
Ken Ray: Did you formulate the idea of arrest at any time prior to commencing your interview, between 620
West Washington when you left and commencing your interview?
Armando Saldate: If you are asking whether I made the decision to arrest Debra Milke for murder, I did not.
Ken Ray: What do you understand physical evidence to be, sir?
Armando Saldate: In what instance?
Ken Ray: In this instance, in the criminal investigation. What do you believe physical evidence to be?
Armando Saldate: Fingerprints to be physical evidence, a gun
to be physical evidence, casings to be physical evidence, shoe prints at the scene could be physical evidence.
Ken Ray: Basically objects, tangible objects?
Armando Saldate: footprint is a tangible object.
Ken Ray: Sure.
Armando Saldate: A gun is a tangible object. Casings found along the roadway are tangible objects. Shoes are tangible objects. Numerous things, whatever the case involves. Different things will -- if it's a burglary, then it might be a screwdriver. If it's a murder, then it's a gun or possibly a knife. But in this case a gun. So there are different things.
Ken Ray: As you proceeded from 620 West Washington after returning from 99th and Happy Valley --
Armando Saldate: Yes.
Ken Ray: -- you had not acquired any physical evidence to suggest Debra Milke was a suspect, had you?
Armando Saldate: No.
MR. RAY: No further questions at this time, Your Honor.
THE COURT: Redirect.
MR. LEVY: One moment, Your Honor. No cross-examination.
THE COURT: How about redirect?
MR. LEVY: None of that, either. I misspoke.
THE COURT: Mr. Saldate, thank you very much. You may step down. You are excused.
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