On June 19, 1998, KTVK's evening news aired a segment of an interview that PAUL HUEBL, a Phoenix journalist and private investigator, has made with a jury member of Debra Milke's trial, DeANNA KRUPP. MRS. KRUPP confirmed that the tape played in the jury room was instrumental to serve as character denunciation of Debra Milke.

During the work on the website version of the interview with Armando Saldate we considered the time-frame and found it to be an interesting fact that this taped interview of SANDRA PICKINPAUGH took place only four days after SALDATE was questioned by Debbie's defense attorney. SALDATE had made the appointment to visit MS. PICKINPAUGH only one day earlier. In a telephone interview with Debra's attorney Anders V. Rosenquist MS. PICKINPAUGH remembered: "... I remember Saldate telling me on the phone the very last time, he had just, he called and told me he had his reservations and he was coming up the next day. And, I told him that it was really inconvenient for me and he said, well, either you do it now or you get subpoenaed and you're going to have to deliver your baby early."

The 'secret' tape

This particular interview of Debra Milke's sister, SANDRA PICKINPAUGH, and Detective Saldate is a good example to show that such techniques, mixed with personal motives of the questioned person, could cause a damaging effect on the Debra Jean Milke Case: manipulation and character assassination, big time, but no hard facts at all.

Phoenix, Arizona
June 30, 1990

Transscript of proceedings
Interview of Sandra Pickinpaugh

APPEARANCES:

• Mr. C. Kenneth Ray II
  Attorney for the Defendant
• Mr. Noel Levy
  Deputy County Attorney
• Mr. Armando Saldate
  Examiner

Mr. Saldate: The date is 6-30-90. The time is 12:07 about your time, right? And I'm Armando Saldate and I'm a detective with the Phoenix Police Department. I met you once.
Ms. Pickinpaugh: Right. (inaudible)
Mr. Saldate: I met you later on. Didn't you come in with your mother? (inaudible)
Ms. Pickinpaugh: Right.

Discrepancy #1: Wrong. Her mother, RENATE JANKA asked SANDY'S girlfriend, DEE STRICKLAND, to take her to Saldate's office in Phoenix, where MS. JANKA talked to SALDATE alone. SANDY was not present at that occasion. There is no record that SANDY talked to Detective Saldate personally prior to his meeting with MS. JANKA on Dec. 7, 1989 or ever before, and in fact SANDY herself confirmed in her telephone-interview with attorney Anders Rosenquist that she had never talked to SALDATE before.

Mr. Saldate: You met me and wanted to talk to me.
Ms. Pickinpaugh: (inaudible) right after the funeral.
Mr. Saldate: Yeah. How do you spell your last name, Sandra?
Ms. Pickinpaugh: P-i-c-k-i-n-p-a-u-g-h.
Mr. Saldate: P-a-u-g-h?
Ms. Pickinpaugh: Uh-huh.
Mr. Saldate: What is your date of birth?
Ms. Pickinpaugh: 8-9-66.
Mr. Saldate: Your address is 755--
Ms. Pickinpaugh: Riverview Drive, number 4.
Mr. Saldate: And the phone number here is?
Ms. Pickinpaugh: Are code 307-075-9164.
Mr. Saldate: Thank you. Is there where your husband works?
Ms. Pickinpaugh: Um-hmm. Yeah, he got (inaudible). His brothers live here. One lives here and one lives in Rock Springs. And he was here on vacation and got offered a job over in Rock Springs.
Mr. Saldate: (Inaudible)
Ms. Pickinpaugh: Well, the first job he got was a refrigeration technician. He got offered a job here for a local refrigeration company as a technician then they laif him off in February and (inaudible) he just got accepted for a job at Chevron. He's going to be a control operator for Chevron Chemical.
Mr. Saldate: That's here too?
Ms. Pickinpaugh: It's in Rock Springs.
Mr. Saldate: Rock Springs?
Ms. Pickinpaugh: Yeah. It's really a nice little community to live in. It's a smaller community than Rock Springs. It's just (inaudible). It's just a little bit cleaner than Rock Springs. Rock Springs has all the malls and K-Marts and the grocery stores but it's only 11 miles up the highway.
Mr. Saldate: So it's really not that bad, huh?
Ms. Pickinpaugh: No. And (inaudible).
Mr. Saldate: When was the last time you talked to your sister?
Ms. Pickinpaugh: My son's birthday, November 11th.
Mr. Saldate: Noevmber 11th of?
Ms. Pickinpaugh: '89.
Mr. Saldate: Did she call you?
Ms. Pickinpaugh: Um-hmm.
Mr. Saldate: What did she have to say?
Ms. Pickinpaugh: Well, she called to wish Jason a happy birthday and also tell me about the result of the hearing. I guess Mark had filed some kind of papers to try and get joint custody of Christopher and she had just attended the hearing the previous week. And was really happy because the judge denied him joint custody and she just was really happy about it. Because he didn't get any part of the custody.
Mr. Saldate: Since then have you talked to her?
Ms. Pickinpaugh: I sent her money once a month but I just put it in a mailing envelope and just address it to her at the jail. I don't write anything in it. The first time I sent her mail I wrote her a note saying that I wanted - if it was convenient for her to have somebody change her address, to forward her address to the jail. And (inaudible).
Mr. Saldate: Why are you (inaudible) mail?
Ms. Pickinpaugh: Well, at the time that Debbie was arrested there were packages from Germany and Switzerland en route to her (inaudible) and they were valuable packages. I just went in and had the mail curved over here so we would get the packages. Because of overseas rate my grandparents would have to pay to have it shipped back to them. It would cost two or three hundred dollars to have it shipped back to them.
Mr. Saldate: Oh, really?
Ms. Pickinpaugh: Yeah. I mean every Christmas they send, you know, a humongous package and it cost a lot of postage.
Mr. Saldate: How is your mom doing?
Ms. Pickinpaugh: My mom, she's feeling better. She's getting better. She's (inaudible) and she's got other problems to deal with, you know, in her own personal life.
Mr. Saldate: Her marriage?
Ms. Pickinpaugh: Well (inaudible) it's just that - it's typical, typical (inaudible). They just finished building a brand new house and they're landscapers, you know. The typical things, landscapers are tying to squeeze extra money out of them, contractors are trying to squeeze extra money so she's busy with that. You know, that's got her all --
Mr. Saldate: No problem with the marriage?

Comment: Isn't it interesting to detect how relentlessly SALDATE tried to find a dirty stain in the private life of Debra's mother, RENATE JANKA? Too bad - no - no problems with the marriage ...

Ms. Pickinpaugh: No. It's just, you know --
Mr. Saldate: She's a real nice lady. Seemed to be a real nice lady.

Comment: Interesting, especially since MS. JANKA declares that SALDATE told her into her face: "Your daughter will never see the light of day again and you had better get back home to where you came from.". Upon MS. JANKA'S request to see the confession at that occasion (12-07-1989, the day of Christopher's funeral), SALDATE snapped that she had no right to see it.

Ms. Pickinpaugh: She is. Yeah, she is. Unfortunately I really never - never was real close to her so we just started becoming friends, I'd say about three years ago.
Mr. Saldate: I don't really know your dad at all.
Ms. Pickinpaugh: My dad's a character.
Mr. Saldate: I don't know him at all. They had a chance to - other detectives had a chance to talk to him before I got there.
Ms. Pickinpaugh: Yeah. I think he's talked to the defense. He's talked to the prosecution. He's talked to -
Mr. Saldate: Well, he's a security guard or a prison guard?
Ms. Pickinpaugh: Right.
Mr. Saldate: You know - he knows all the - he's been around and has had a chance to be interviewed before. Then they had him I remember he was telling me on the phone that he was investigated because Mark said he threatened his life. Stuff like that. And I called him - I called the DOC, his employment. Mark's dad - see we got - initially we got a police report saying that Mark said that. I called down there to see what was going on because it wasn't really a report I should handle but it was given to me because (inaudible).

Comment: Too bad that part of the talk was inaudible. At least it tells us that SALDATE was in possession of a report he did not have to handle, but that report gave him detailed background knowledge of what was going on with the hostile family situation in Arizona.

And I called down there to talk to Mark to see what the heck was all about. And Mark's dad said he wasn't there but let me tell you something. If anybody was threatening anybody it was Mark threatening your dad, you know. So that's when I called DOC (inaudible).

Comment: SALDATE used a lot of words to justify his phone call to DOC (Department of corrections) as the employer of RICHARD SADEIK. It's up to suspicions whether a DOC employee talked to RICHARD SADEIK about the murder case of Christopher Milke and what effect that possibly could've had. At least we know that SALDATE had indeed talked with DOC.

Ms. Pickinpaugh: They'd been at odds with each other - typical, I think any father would probably react, not even talking about the murder, I mean. My sister is a very attractive person. She's very intelligent and my parents had a lot of aspirations for her, you know, a lot of plans for her, you know, and Debbie did real well until my mom up and left. After that for some reason Debbie had this vendetta against (inaudible).
Mr. Saldate: Your mother -
Ms. Pickinpaugh: (Inaudible). She, well, I think (inaudible) was more so than my dad. After the divorce my dad just kind of stays, you know, in the background. (Inaudible) we knew where he was at and we knew where he was at. My dad never made any attempt to push her after the divorce because he wanted us to find out for ourselves, you know, the things that happened. We were so young, I was 10, Debbie was 12 and so he never pursued us kids. He never forced us to come and visit. We would call him and say, you know -
Mr. Saldate: Who were you living with?
Ms. Pickinpaugh: Our mother. And he - it's just been that way through the years. He was always in the background. He always lets us know that he loves us kids and that he's there but he's not going to pursue us. You know, he doesn't want to get - he never wanted to interfere with anything, you know. And when Debbie brought Mark home for the first time it really just crushed both my parents actually because - I guess if they expected anybody it would be me they expected to bring some (inaudible) guy home because I was always the rebellious one, you know. I was very very independent and Debbie was very very conformed to what people told her to do she would do. You know, she would - there was no love lost between Mark and my dad. My dad treated him like a son-in-law, was decent to him. I can't ever remember a time (inaudible) odds with each other. But by the same token every time Debbie would call my dad and say well, Mark's drinking again and they just (inaudible) again or Mark (inaudible) my dad would just hey, you made your bed now you got to lie in it, you know. I'm here for you if you need me but don't expect me to bail you out. Every time Mark went to prison Debbie would be on the phone asking my dad for this, that and the other and my dad said no, I can't do that. To a lot of people I guess that would seem cruel. But that was just the way my dad was and he was very up front about it all the way through the years we were growing up. He said I'm your father. I'm responsible for you until you're 18 but after that it's none of my business. I can't form an opinion, I just accept and, you know, if you need me for anything I'm here but I will not bail you out financially. I will not (inaudible) and he's just that way.

Comment: MR. SADEIK'S attitude towards his daughters is corroborated by their mother, however, SANDRA did not mention how many times her mother bailed her out of serious financial problems and literally supported her, even after her marriage to MR. PICKINPAUGH. According to MS. JANKA, Debbie seldom asked for help.

Mr. Saldate: We both know Mark is probably not the best person there ever was, you know. He has tried to come across that way now, I mean, you know, he was father of the years before and all of a sudden it's (inaudible).
Ms. Pickinpaugh: (Inaudible).
Mr. Saldate: We know that. The situation - we should be going to court pretty soon on - I would say it could be - we were (inaudible) the 17th of July. However I would say it's probably going to be continued til mid September, first weeks in September. It's going to be some time before it goes to court.
Debra's going to probably be the first one they are going to put on. And so she's going to be the first one to come up. I'll be very honest with you. The attorney's going to seek the death penalty. Whether you agree with it or I agree with it, I have nothing to say wether I agree or disagree. I just prepare (inaudible).

Comment: The point is not only wether he agrees or disagrees with the death penalty, in fact his only job is to interview SANDRA PICKINPAUGH and investigate in this murder case. But the explicit exclusion of his personal agreement or disagreement rather leads one to suspect that it has already taken on an utterly different dimension of major importance.

Do you agree with the death penalty?

Comment: And it was obviously also important for SALDATE to ensure that his interview partner agrees with that sentence by asking a leading question. But surely also an important information for prosecutor Noel Levy in order to determine to subpoena SANDY.

Ms. Pickinpaugh: Do I agree with it in general terms or -
Mr. Saldate: Just general terms.
Ms. Pickinpaugh: Oh, yes, I agree (inaudible).

Comment: That's what the cop wanted to hear. Next he leads the interrogation on to Debra ...

Mr. Saldate: Now let's bring it out a little more. What do you think about the situation with Debra?
Ms. Pickinpaugh: What happened?
Mr. Saldate: Right.
Ms. Pickinpaugh: It's really hard for me to say because there's so many theories floating around and so many, you know, it's just such a, you know, no planning, you know, nobody first saw anything per se, I mean -

Comment: This was SANDY'S initial statement. She admitted to have no idea what happened and was confused by "so many theories floating around". Despite the stories spread by the local media, she obviously hard a hard time believing what was told until then. Please keep this point in mind as you read on ...

Mr. Saldate: Okay. There was no planning on your part to be able to accept something like this.
Ms. Pickinpaugh: Well -
Mr. Saldate: But there was plenty on her part.

Comment: This leading statement uncovers Saldate's prejudiced attitude. Isn't the declaration of guilt the duty of a jury rather than the obligation of a single, biased person? It's pretty obvious that this is how the cop lead the interview partner to believe Debra had plenty of planning on her part in this crime, when in fact no facts against her existed at all. Debbie has always denied that Saldate's 'alleged "confession"' has ever taken place.

Ms. Pickinpaugh: Sure.

Comment: Sure? Didn't SANDY just state "It's really hard for me to say ...?" SANDRA did actually have no information about the crime at all, but confirmed what she was told to believe.

But none of it - there were no clues or signs.

Comment: Is that true? In a discusssion session on April 10, 2001 SANDY claimed: "I witnessed first hand her abuse, both verbally and physically to that child, AND I also heard ON MANY OCCASIONS OUT OF HER OWN MOUTH how she wished Christopher was not in her life" (click for more info). So it is very obvious that - whatever SANDY really thought she knew - her opinion changed quite some time after Debbie's arrest, for reasons only a psychologist should testify to. Yet, neither SANDRA nor anybody else has ever reported Debbie insulting or abusing her son Christopher prior to the day of his murder. But keep this for the record: on June 30, 1989 (approximately two months prior to the trail) during this interrogation, SANDRA PICKINPAUGH saw no clues or signs that her sister Debbie could be involved in a crime like this.

You have to understand, Jim and I were very, very, very close friends. I mean, he was at my house every day. Even after we moved here I think I talked to Jim at least three times a week. Even after living here. And I didn't even get any signs from him.

Comment: Please, also note this: SANDRA explicitly states how close she had been with JIM STYERS (neglecting to state that she has shared an apartment with him for some time before her marriage), but she hasn't gotten any signs from him either. There was nothing she could see at that time that linked both, JIM STYERS or her sister Debra to this crime, the murder of 4-year-old Christopher. And as we have shown - looking a look at the "conspirac y issue" as such - it is understandable, because no hard facts corroborate Saldate's theory at all.

I mean, nothing at all which is very very unlike Jim. I mean, you can pretty much coax anything out of Jim, you know, and I -
Mr. Saldate: He didn't know at that time to even try to coax anything out of him.

Comment: With this leading statement SALDATE started to "tell" SANDRA his story, what he wanted her to believe. This is what he wanted her to think has taken place, this is how he continued to lie at trial. In fact, it has never been found out without a doubt who really killed Christopher, but all hints and evidence point at ROGER SCOTT. In the telephone interview of witness JEAN PUGH statements were made that lead to SALDATE knew about SCOTT'S real role, but changed the story to achieve three quick and dry convictions. But other than that - SALDATE couldn't possibly know at what time JAMES STYERS allegedly knew that Christopher was to be killed. After his arrest STYERS refused to say anything more and wanted an attorney. Ever since he continued to maintain his innocence of the murder.

Ms. Pickinpaugh: Well, no but still, you could always tell when something is just not right especially with a good friend. You can tell when something is just not (inaudible).

Comment: SANDY still resisted Saldate's theory and could not imagine not being able to tell that something was not right. Whatever she stated later and up to this day: SANDRA PICKINPAUGH had no idea and no knowledge or suspicion about anything that links Debra Milke to the murder of her son.

Mr. Saldate: What was Debbie's position with Jim?
Ms. Pickinpaugh: Well, I (inaudible). She was never as close to him because my sister didn't have any friends. The only time she ever called people was when she needed something and she's always been that way. She does not have friends. She's never had friends. You know, I'm talking about like my girlfriend Dee, I've known her 13 years and we talk to each other, you know, I mean not in lieu of friends but, you know, we just -
Debbie has never had any true friends to her name. It's just people that she's acquainted with that when she needed something then she calls them up (inaudible), you know, and Jim was one of those people. Jim knew both of us from living in - Debbie and I used to live together in a complex and I would work nights. Debbie worked days and we would take turns taking care of the kids, both together. So she knew Jim in that sense. I mean, she never spent any time with him or, you know, I mean, every once in a while she'd go out with Jim and me when we'd go out dancing or drinking or something.
It was really weird Debbie pretty much (inaudible). I didn't even hear from Debbie until she wanted something. And we'd go months at a time.

Comment: Records show that SANDY hardly ever worked anywhere for more than a few months. Debra oftentimes worked two jobs (day and night shifts) to make ends meet for all of them (when MARK MILKE was in jail). Based on personal letters to their mother written by SANDY, she preferred to take care of the children and was paid by Debbie. How, then, could SANDRA claim that she worked night shifts, but was still able to go out dancing etc.? Not to mention the phone calls she made to her mother at times when she should have been at work, as she claims.

Mr. Saldate: Okay. This is the impression I got.

Comment: Another of Saldate's personal remarks that intended to influence and lead SANDRA'S statements. In fact, SALDATE has never talked to Debra other than those 35 minutes in the jail dispensary at the Pinal County Sheriff's Office, after Debra was almost 24 hours awake, had various medications and alcohol and was concerned about her son who had disappeared. Did she really appear like an egomaniac party girl to him?

Correct me if I'm wrong because like I said I didn't know Debbie before this. I didn't know Roger before this. I've talked to some people that knew Debra. They referred to her as a very materialistic.
Ms. Pickinpaugh: She was.
Mr. Saldate: Would you believe 
Ms. Pickinpaugh: Oh, yes. Yes. Very materialistic, very very selfish, self-seeking, self-centered. Very very vain. Conceited, I mean, just greatly conceited about herself. There was nothing she doubted about herself as far as outward things like her appearance or things that she wanted or pursued she got. She knew it early.
Mr. Saldate: How about - you know some people are very good at - if I could sit here and say that door is red. You and me can both see that that's a white door. But if I want it to be red I'll make it red. If I want to set my mind that that door is red, it's red.

Comment: Hobby-psychologist SALDATE uses his "expertise", but what's the purpose?

If Debbie was to set her mind on something that wasn't really the truth, would she do that? Was she that type of person? Other than convincing other people. I mean could she convince you that, you know, she may not look good that night when she went out. You could have seen it, somebody else (inaudible).
Ms. Pickinpaugh: But to tell her that -
Mr. Saldate: To tell her that would be impossible because she thought she looked (inaudible).
Ms. Pickinpaugh: That's a good example. When we would go out she always did her hair up and had a lot of eye make-up and I would casually say, you know, that's a little bit much Debbie and she'd say, oh, you're just jealous because you don't have my blue eyes or you can't get away with this like I can. I mean, you could not - anything that you tried to tell her she would probably take it with a grain of salt and just amaze you by sitting there and listening to you. Do you know what I mean?

Sandra Pickinpaugh

You would try to offer her - or somebody might have tried - she would use it - how do you explain it. She would use it. The only time she would come to you when she - when you felt, you know, she's probably had enough. You know, she needs a friend and then she'll turn and use it against you. You know, the only time she would break down was when she wanted something or - or wanted something changed. You know what I mean? Like she would -
Mr. Saldate: And that's when you thought that maybe she was finally -
Ms. Pickinpaugh: She was going for the better. She was finally going to better herself and all it was - actually with me all it was was a ploy to take Christopher for a couple of days which turned out to be a couple of months. You know what I mean. She would come to me and say, you know, I'm so scared. Mark has threatened me and this and that and now he's in jail. Should I go through with the divorce. And I mean we would all coach her, you know, we'd all say, yes, stay out of his life. We'll do whatever we can do to help you, bingo, she scored a point.
Friends would lend her money and say here, you know, we would take her to - drive her around. She's borrow my car. I would keep her kid and then two weeks later nothing would be done. She would have spent the money, you know. Usually my car would be a total mess when she brought it back and she would never come visit Christopher.

Comment: SANDY never purchased a car for herself. MR. and MS. JANKA purchased at least 2 cars for her (in perfect condition), which at least one of them she wrecked personally and her mother/stepfather took care of the situation. SANDY knew that she could always rely on her mother and her husband to furnish her with adequate transportation for her and her son. SANDRA herself wrote her mother that MARK MILKE demolished the car her mother left for Debra, but Debra never asked for another car to be purchased by her mother until the September 1989, trying to be able to get to work in Tempe and be independent from JIM STYERS. Incidentally, after Debbie's arrest, it was one of the first things SANDY asked her mother for - to get Debbie's car.

You know, she would just be gone for two weeks and pop up with a new boyfriend. See what I mean? That's the only time you would ever see her (inaudible) to her advantage. I don't think I've ever seen her want literally honest in saying that she'd had enough. I really thought this last time she went to Colorado to stay with Dorothy. She was very sincere. Her boyfriend had given her money and she lied to him. She told him she just needed it for the divorce and then she took off on him.
I helped her pack and stored some of her stuff and everybody just pitched in to help her because we all felt so sorry for her. And then when she got up there she did nothing but hand her kid over to Dorothy and then she had a boyfriend two days later and spent a lot of time over there. And she was stuck with Christopher - Dorothy was. You know, it's always the same thing. I don't think once Debbie's been honest with anybody when she needed help. I don't think she honestly reached out for help. It was always for another reason.

Comment:  That can only be construed as absolute hearsay. She was not there to truly witness anything. DOROTHY MARKWELL and SANDRA informed Debbie's mother of a thyroid problem, Christopher had (with the typical symptoms of hyper-activity), and Debbie took immediate measures to go back to Phoenix to have it taken care of. The treating pediatrician has issued his according affidavit.

Mr. Saldate: (Inaudible)
Ms. Pickinpaugh: (Inaudible).
Mr. Saldate: Not recently, briefly. I've got the police report of the neglect in Colorado. (Inaudible) talk to her. She's living where now?
Ms. Pickinpaugh: She's in Henderson (inaudible)? She just want to work for that brand new hotel that went up. I don't remember the name of it. Brand new hotel they just put up, casino hotel.
Mr. Saldate: Mirage?
Ms. Pickinpaugh: That's probably it.
Mr. Saldate: In Las Vegas?
Ms. Pickinpaugh: Yeah.
Mr. Saldate: And I'm not saying this because I know you and I've talked to you several times. And I could sit here and look at you and I know this is difficult for you saying things but if somebody else was to listen - or somebody else (inaudible) that I'm on the opposite side. They would say well, Sandy must really hate her sister.

Comment: Here we see the purpose of Saldate's opening statement, that he allegedly knew SANDRA (which was not true). He generated an atmosphere of trust for his interview partner and then swung in to incriminating her sister Debra in a murder case. Psychologiacally clever, but other than SANDY'S jealous statements about Debbie she couldn't imagine that her sister had a part in that conspiracy theory so far.

Ms. Pickinpaugh: (Inaudible).
Mr. Saldate: That's not true though?
Ms. Pickinpaugh: No, it's not true. (Both talking at once)
Mr. Saldate: I know it and I say that only, you know, I know you don't. I know it's difficult for you to even have this interview. When you start talking about your sister, things you have to say but we have to be honest.

Comment: "Honesty" always was the keyword as soon as SALDATE wanted to coax something out of people.

Debra has gone through the psychological tests (inaudible) to see, of course, if she was -
Ms. Pickinpaugh: Unstable.
Mr. Saldate: Unstable.

Discrepancy #2: Pardon? Debbie was under permanent supervision of Dr. Garcia-Bunuel, and his affidavit says everything but Debbie being unstable. Also, she has taken a polygraph test, supervised by DR. FRITZ at the Durango jail, which she passed, but the result was declared inconclusive because of the environment. Saldate's continued his lies aimed at manipulating SANDY. Successfully.

Ms. Pickinpaugh: Debbie's more sane than anybody you know. Debbie is a highly intelligent person.
Mr. Saldate: Oh, I know. I agree. She told me that night we had that interview. One of her points to get across to me was I hope people don't think I'm crazy because I'm not.
Ms. Pickinpaugh: She's not. There's not a thing wrong that girl. I think - like I said it's just been an act for so many years that she's just perfected it. And she's a master. She is a master. You talk to anybody who's known Debbie from this high all the way to her age now and they will tell you the same thing. Anybody that has ever passed in Debbie's past will tell you. It's very difficult - I've know her since -

Comment: Pointing out the clear mind and the sanity of Debbie, SALDATE accomplishes a picture about her that makes her appear a cold-blooded, calculating person. SANDY, with the well-known jealousy about her older sister, agreed and picked up on that statement. It's like SALDATE just has to start the bad points about Debra and SANDRA willinginly confirms what the cop wanted to hear.

Mr. Saldate: Master of deception. Master of -
Ms. Pickinpaugh: Yeah, master of deception to she's a master of manipulation.

Comment: Again, SALDATE put the words in SANDY'S mouth and she just had to agree to get the desired statement.

That's probably foremost more than anything else. Debra has a way with people.

Comment: Didn't SANDY state earlier that Debbie didn't have any friends? But she has a way with people??? Where is the logical conclusion, and how does that gel?

She puts on this facade that makes people feel so sorry for her that they are going to do just about anything. And, I mean, right down to - I couldn't even put a limit on what they would do for her. Because she just puts on this - I don't know how to explain it. It's an act. It's a - you know, my dad is the hardest person in the world, I'll tell you. You want something from my dad you better, you know, just to look at my dad - When I know I have to ask for something my dad just makes me shake inside my own boots, you know. And my sister even managed to get past him.

Comment: She stated herself that nobody got past RICHARD A. SADEIK ever, so SANDY was obviously envious about that alleged ability of Debra to even get along with her father, RICHARD SADEIK. A total contradiction of her earlier statements.

Which in my mind is just incredible. My mother is easy. My mother's cake, always has been cake for both of us kids.
Mr. Saldate: Let's keep this - stay on this subject for a minute about she has this thing about getting people to do anything for her.

Comment: SALDATE seeked his chance to get SANDRA forming an opinion about Debbie at this point. "Getting people to do anything for her" is the clue term he was looking for.

This is what I, you know, after I interviewed Scott, I interviewed Jim, I interviewed your sister. I interviewed probably virtually -
Ms. Pickinpaugh: Everybody.

Comment: Everybody? Why then didn't SALDATE interview Debra's ex-husband, MARK MILKE, before he arrested Debra? SALDATE never took into consideration that another scenario could have happened.

Mr. Saldate: (Inaudible) you know me. I - you know basically what happened. Basically -

Comment: How could SANDRA possibly know? Didn't she state earlier that it was "really hard for me to say because there's so many theories floating around?" SANDY knew nothing and had no idea, but SALDATE fed her the story the way he wanted her to believe his scenario. He literally brainwashed her.

Ms. Pickinpaugh: I just know that they plotted this thing - the theory is they plotted this -

Comment: And if there are still doubts, here's what SANDY confirmed with her own words: "The theory is ..."

Mr. Saldate: Debra tells me - and I'll tell you what Debra told me. Debra tells me - told me that night. I'm trying to put it in a different - Ernie Sweat - you know Ernie Sweat?
Ms. Pickinpaugh: I met the man once.
Mr. Saldate: Let me explain - was a very clear minded person.
Ms. Pickinpaugh: Oh yeah.

Comment: How can a police investigator comment about the clear mind of another person involved in police investigations? This statement manipulates SANDRA and is a pure allegation, to accomplish a certain purpose. Again, his interrogation technique manipulatively puts words into SANDY'S mouth and she just confirms by saying "Oh yeah." Leading statement. Court records show that ERNIE SWEAT corrected SALDATE on 5 incorrect statements made by Armando Saldate regarding the relationship.

Mr. Saldate: He liked Debbie for other reasons. He liked Debbie because Debbie was a nice girl. Debbie was a very good looking girl to take on dates. Him and Debbie were having sexual realtions. But he was also dating other girls.
Ms. Pickinpaugh: Right.

Comment: Right? Didn't SANDRA state before that she met the man only once? But she knew about his habits concerning dating other girls than Debra? And how would SANDY know, living in another state?

Mr. Saldate: Debbie had it in her mind -
Ms. Pickinpaugh: That it was something different.
Mr. Saldate: There was something serious and -
Ms. Pickinpaugh: Well, the phone call on the 11th when she called on Jason's birthday she told me that Ernie had proposed to her and that they were going to get married just as soon as she could make arragements with - excuse me.

Discrepancy #3: SALDATE claimed Debra's relationship was something serious, when in fact both, ERNIE and Debra have always testified that their relationship was just fun at that stage. And please note that SANDRA claimed that ERNIE SWEAT was supposedly the one who had proposed marriage.

They were going to get married as soon as Ernie spent a little bit more time with Christopher and got a little bit better adjusted to Christopher.

Comment: Again: Debbie and ERNIE have both always denied any intention to get married at that stage.

Which was understandable to me at that time because (inaudible) too, you know. Yeah, but she had told me all that. And Jim had called me three days later and told me that Debbie was hallucinating. Which was normal.

Comment: Didn't SANDY often say during this interrogation that there was not a thing wrong with Debra?

Debbie - like you were talking about the red door. Debbie sees what she wants to see. Debbie hears what she wants to hear.
Mr. Saldate: Let me write that down because I think it's a good point. And I'll tell you in a minute why.
Ms. Pickinpaugh: (Inaudible).
Mr. Saldate: And then three days later who called you?
Ms. Pickinpaugh: Jim did.
Mr. Saldate: Did you tell him about this?
Ms. Pickinpaugh: Well, I had made the comment. I said Debbie had sounded really well. This was the first time I had actually heard her happy in a year. And that I was glad the relationship with Ernie was going well and he said where did you hear that? And I said she told me. And he said well, Ernie and she had been back and forth for the last couple weeks. You know, bickering back and forth over - I guess she proposed an ultimatum to him and he didn't like that.

Comment: Please note this statement: "I guess she proposed an ultimatum ..." Later on this will become another contradiction.

Which was normal. Debbie (inaudible) quite normal. And that's what they were bickering about. She gave him an ultimatum.

Comment: As SANDY became more and more confident the assumption turned into a statement.

She says, you know, either we do it this way or we don't see each other anymore. You know, and I think Ernie really liked Debbie a lot but she puts men in that position to where they don't have a choice.

Comment: SANDY said earlier that ERNIE had proposed marriage. How could she testify it was Debra who put "men into that position?" Both, MR. and MS. JANKA have met with Debra and ERNIE SWEAT more times than the rest of the SADEIK family. It was very clear from the start that they shared a relationship, but that marriage was not a topic and never had been. MR. SWEAT'S sworn statement in court bears that out.

So she said that they were bickering about it. Which kind of made me wonder but then again, if you've dealt with her for so many years you figure well -
Mr. Saldate: Jim said that Debra was hallucinating now?
Ms. Pickinpaugh: Well, it didn't come out exactly, you know, she's hallucinating.

Comment: ... of course, because Debbie gave JIM no reason to think that. Their relationship was strictly "business" and had nothing to do with anything personal.

When he had told me that they were having problems I said well, that's typical Debbie, always seeing things the way she wants to see them. And he said well, yeah. He knew about Debbie's character just from experience. Like I said just from me talking to him. Whenever she would out on over me, you know, Jim was who I'd go to and say well, she did it again. One of these days I'm going to learn, you know. So Jim knew Debbie's character from me, you know, he knew what he was in for. As a matter of fact the night that - while him and Debbie were loading up the truck Jim got really quiet. He got really scared. He said he didn't want him to leave and I asked him why and he said because I know what your sister is. Your sister is just going to come and hound me and use me. He knew it. And he was petrified of it.

Comment: In fact there are some witnesses to confirm that JIM STYERS has literally begged Debra not to move out with her son Christopher. It is rather questionable whether SANDRA'S account of the situation was accurate..

And I said, Jim, tell her no. Just tell her you don't want the responsibility of taking care of Christopher. That you don't want her living with you and I think they lived here a week and he called. Guess what. See, that was him. Jim could not say no to anybody. I mean, Jim just does numerous things for people. He's just that kind of person (inaudible). He would call me and say I'll be over in 10 minutes, I'm right around the corner from you and show up two hours later. You know. It was because he saw a lady on the highway with her car, you know, or somebody needed a ride somewhere. Jim just did not have the ability - he did not have the strength to stand up for himself. Did not have the ability to say, you know, I'm not going to take this. He would always just crumble and say well, I'll get over it. He did a lot of things for me. There's a lot of things he did for me that I really didn't expect. But he did, you know, with no question asked.
Mr. Saldate: Did you ask him about - did you ask him if they (inaudible) going to get married?
Ms. Pickinpaugh: No, because I knew better. It was typical of the same game. It was a typical game, you know. Debbie - like I said she - this was grapevine stuff. I guess (inaudible) talking about it in passing. That kind of stuff I just kind of by-passed because I know Debbie. To me it was nothing worth pursuing because I knew (inaudible).
Mr. Saldate: What do you think the relationship evolved into? I can see you saying taking advantage of her. I've read letters to Debra. Letters that have been supplied by his attorney.
Ms. Pickinpaugh: Just in recent months?
Mr. Saldate: Just recently since he's been in jail. And - 
(Beeb and tape went dead about three quarters through side 1.)
(Side 2) Mr. Saldate: Debra's trying to pursue - her theory is, of course she didn't do anything. I didn't know nothing had happened. Jim's theory is, of course, and I can see it in the letters and I can see it in a lot of things.

Comment: Saldate's conception of justice was obviously based on what he saw and thought was true, no matter the real circumstances. This already came to surface in his interview with Mr. Ray, Debra's defense attorney. Those letters between Debra and JIM STYERS only stated what Debbie says up to this day: that she had no idea of what was going on and intended to find out about it.

He, of course, gave me the theory it wasn't he that did it. It was Roger Scott that did it. You know, I didn't know he was the one that did it either. However, he's doing this and she's asking him -
Ms. Pickinpaugh: So she's writing him back?
Mr. Saldate: Yeah. Let me explain the letters and you'll see what these letters are about. We don't have all the letters. Some of the letters, you know, they - of course they told the attorney's they destroyed or whatever. The letters we do have start with the fact that she didn't know what happened. I need to know what happened, Jim. And Jim is responding to her as if she didn't know what was happening. In reading these letters you can see it is a setup. They're setting people up to believe in all that kind of -
Jim - we have the letters (inaudible). Jim did do the shooting.

Discrepancy #4: The letters written between JIM STYERS and Debra don't contain any confirmation that JIM STYERS did indeed do the shooting, like SALDATE claimed. What they really confirmed was that JIM STYERS had been at the murder-scene with ROGER SCOTT, but the following trials did not come to a final conclusion as to who was the real gunman.

He - you've got to be real strong. You have to love somebody a lot to do what he did. I mean, I don't know if it's mind control or if she has that strong of a (inaudible) but she has really controlled Jim.
Ms. Pickinpaugh: Oh, yeah. That's not surprising. Jim is very easily controlled.
Mr. Saldate: And then to pursue after he does it - to pursue it and to come back and think the lie up, you know, to officers and stuff like that, to continue to pursue it.
And then once they (inaudible) back. And that's why - and people wonder well, Roger Scott confessed. Debra confessed but Jim didn't. Okay? Jim told me, I don't know what happened. He has since in letters confessed somewhat.

Discrepancy #5: Another one of Saldate's lies. All the known letters between Debra and STYERS shortly after their arrest state that Debra had nothing to do with the murder of Christopher. No incrimination of Debra whatsoever is included in those letters at all.

However, but you look at both ends of the scale where Jim stayed in the middle and you know why Roger Scott's confessing. Because it really wasn't his idea. He was going to do it for something else. Do it for money.
Ms. Pickinpaugh: Right.

Comment: How could SANDRA possibly know? Please consider the fact that SALDATE only stated "do it for money". He didn't elaborate what money and where it should come from. If SANDY had been told the alleged motive was a life insurance she must have know that Debra, who has worked in the insurance field for some years at that stage, would've known that no insurance company would ever pay in case of a felony.

Mr. Saldate: So it wasn't his idea to begin with. He's not really involved in the - involved - how do I put it?
Ms. Pickinpaugh: He's not knee deep in it.
Mr. Saldate: No. Not seriously involved in the, you know, he's legally in it. He's going to be prosecuted just like the rest of them. But he's not emotionally involved in what was happening.
Ms. Pickinpaugh: Right.
Mr. Saldate: Okay. (Inaudible) he's involved. He participated. He's a participant in all this. Then he got at the other end, he got Debra (inaudible). But now she handled (inaudible). She has a reason to try to, of course, I did it for other reasons. I didn't want him to grow up like Mark.

Comment: No mother would want her child to grow up like a drug abuser. But then, why didn't SALDATE investigate whether Debra's ex-husband MARK MILKE had a motive? Debra's entire demeanor up to the killing of her son was much more about her concern for his welfare.

In other words, she's doing it - she's trying to explain her actions because as she grew up and as you're explaining her to me and that I know her, she's trying to manipulate what happened and make it better than what happened because she knows she's in trouble. Jim was the only one that (inaudible) that night. The only reason he didn't do it was is he wasn't actually wrong. He probably was the only person.
You know he was mostly involved. He had someone to save. He didn't know that Debra was going to talk later on. Debra was gone.

Comment: She was gone because police officers encouraged her on December 3, 1989 to go to Florence with her step-mother and her step-sister and wait with her family when Christopher was reported missing.

Debra was in Florence, you know, when we talked to him.
Ms. Pickinpaugh: That would just make me think all the more the fact that she was running out on him, just me knowing Jim.

Comment: Now SANDY joined the circle of speculations. There is nothing she could say about that point in time. She was in Wyoming and has not been there and only learned from what other people have told her.

Mr. Saldate: (Inaudible) Jim didn't know if she was going to (inaudible). He would never, ever -
Ms. Pickinpaugh: But what did he do when he found out she did admit? (Inaudible)
Mr. Saldate: She (inaudible). She was already in jail. He didn't know.

Discrepancy #6: Untrue. JIM STYERS had been arrested at 5.17 p.m. on that December 3, 1989. This probably explains the rush of Detective SALDATE to use a helicopter to fly to Florence and arrest Debra Milke. This happened at approximately 8.20 p.m. that day.

Ms. Pickinpaugh: So he just figured I'm already -
Mr. Saldate: We, of course, did not ever talk to him again. Once we (inaudible) we couldn't go back and talk to him.
Ms. Pickinpaugh: Right.
Mr. Saldate: So we couldn't ever approach him and say, look, this is it. This is what happened. She has admitted. (Inaudible). (Inaudible).
Ms. Pickinpaugh: 755 $ a month.
Mr. Saldate: I don't (inaudible) all -
Ms. Pickinpaugh: Oh, he's dead (sic).
Mr. Saldate: Is he dead?
Ms. Pickinpaugh: Oh, I don't know. I'm asking.
Mr. Saldate: Sherry Masini - do you know who Sharon Masini is?
Ms. Pickinpaugh: No.
Mr. Saldate: She's written his checks. (Inaudible) I don't know. But any way Jim - she doesn't even understand. She (inaudible). She doesn't understand the fact that she had once a month deposited money - (inaudible). Every letter that Debbie writes to him always ends up with please send me some money.

Comment: Another lie of SALDATE. Sure, Debbie may have asked STYERS for money, since neither her own sister nor her own father cared. Her mother, who lived in Switzerland, was led to believe that Debbie had indeed confessed. But Debra didn't ask for money in every letter, that's simply not true (as you can see on this website). Prisoners in Arizona are not freely provided the least items of daily use, like paper or ball pens, not to speak of music tapes or books.

I know it's hard for you and it's hard for me to even ask but -
Ms. Pickinpaugh: Right.
Mr. Saldate: You know -
Ms. Pickinpaugh: He says that (inaudible) makes her the least bit guilty to ask anybody for money or anything and I'm sure Jim sends it to her.
Mr. Saldate: He does. He sends her money. He sends her writing material. He feels so good because she writes to him.
Ms. Pickinpaugh: Sure.
Mr. Saldate: And in one of the letters - I say she's probably - one of the letters we don't have she's telling him a couple of things like (inaudible) - when we get out of here - when I get out here we could be together (inaudible).

Discrepancy #7: Pardon? In one of the letter we don't have, is that what he was saying? How can he possibly claim to know the contents of a letter if he doesn't HAVE the letter?

Ms. Pickinpaugh: And see that's not - that's just it. Debbie has no intention - she has none - is she walks on this she's going to be gone and she's (inaudible).
Mr. Saldate: She tells him also in one of the letters, well, you know, how she's going to be out of state and everything else and then ultimately she asks him for money and then at the very last - at the very last when she asks him for money she says, oh, Jim, maybe when you get out you can meet me where I'm at, you know.
Ms. Pickinpaugh: But (both talking at once).
Ms. Pickinpaugh: Exactly. That's exactly what I'm talking about. This is how Debbie gets what she wants. You know (inaudible) letter and tells him, by the way, can you send me some money. That's Debbie true to the letter. And the thing that I don't understand about it is why Jim, of all people, fell for this because Jim, of all people, has seen her go through so many relationships where the pattern would be the exact same. And it's funny because then he'd call me and say, you know, how can men be that stupid. And I'd say, well, you tell me, Jim, you're a man. You know. We see it (inaudible) it happens to him.
Mr. Saldate: Yeah, but it happened to him because it's a lot easier to look on the outside and say how could these guys take that shit but then all of a sudden -
Ms. Pickinpaugh: Suddenly it's focused on him.
Mr. Saldate: - it's only her and him. All of a sudden he started, like he said, the gestures, everything else and then you forget about things (inaudible). And I'm sure (inaudible) maybe you can tell me. Like you said the gestures and things that she did (inaudible). But it would not surprise me if she would get up accidently, you know, quickly run out of her bedroom or something like that (inaudible) or be something -
Ms. Pickinpaugh: (Inaudible) You know, and needed - not needed - I don't even know Debbbie but I never would but my husband has a fit because I come out in my PJs and my PJs are not nighties, you know, mine are the Garfield big T-shirts, you know and to me I figured I'm covered, I don't care, as long as it's not see-through. I don't care. That's not Debbie. No.

Comment: No matter the relationship between SANDY and Debbie, but please notice what SALDATE was doing now. Four days prior to this interrogation he had an interview with Debra's defense attorney, Ken Ray. In that he never mentioned that anything sexually related happened during his interrogation of Debra on that December 3, 1989. SANDY'S statement "... I figured I'm covered. ( ... ). That's not Debbie. No." brought that thought up with him, and now please take care of how this develops with his story ...

Mr. Saldate: I'll give you and example.
Ms. Pickinpaugh: Debbie (inaudible) in her bra and her panties and meets company always. But see from my point of view that's natural, you know, and like I said we always did consider Jim such a close friend that he never looked at us in that respect, you know, a woman, you know, this is (inaudible) friends, they're my buddies now, somebody else would come in the house and of course not, Debbie and I would cover up but like I said, Jim would stay the night in my house and I'd come out in the morning in my Garfield pajamas, you know and it was normal (inaudible) when he comes through because he doesn't understand that.
But it's the way you were raised, you know. So whether Debbie uses it or not I really couldn't say because you're talking about Jim. If you're talking about somebody else and she did that yeah, I'd put it past her. I really would. But you're talking about Jim and you've got to realize that Jim has always meant to us just like a father, actually a surrogate father. We never thought about it.

Comment: SANDRA admitted (by American standards) to an "open relationship" (what kind of clothing they wore), whenever JIM came visiting, including herself (father figure etc.). However, she used that same frame of "behavior" against her own sister, which later on in Saldate's testimony was wrongfully used against Debbie (as has been proven by court records).

Mr. Saldate: Jim was always over.
Ms. Pickinpaugh: Yeah.
Mr. Saldate: Let me give you an example. And you (inaudible) you know (inaudible) interview Debbie and me had done something when we were talking. When I went into the room (inaudible).
Ms. Pickinpaugh: Who's that? My sister doesn't have, I mean, the only aunt we have is -
Mr. Saldate: Maybe (inaudible).
Ms. Pickinpaugh: My stepmother?
Mr. Saldate: Yeah. She have a sister or something?
Ms. Pickinpaugh: Stepsister, yeah, Karen.
Mr. Saldate: Okay. I'm not sure.
Ms. Pickinpaugh: They're the same age. Debbie and Karen.
Mr. Saldate: She was with her at the police station?
Ms. Pickinpaugh: When she got arrested?
Mr. Saldate: When she was taken to the Florence police station (inaudible).
Ms. Pickinpaugh: Oh, I know who you mean. You're talking about Jan. Jan's a family friend. She worked for INI out at DOC. Yeah, she's a detective too.

Comment: ... which leads us to another interesting point. JANET FROEBE, an acquaintance of the SADEIK'S accompanied Debra, when Pinal County Sheriff's Deputy SOULES asked her to come down to Florence to the jail facility. SOULES had his order from Phoenix officer SGT. ONTIVEROS (the superior of SALDATE), who only told him that Debra was to be interviewed. During Saldate's interrogation of Debra, MS. FROEBE was interviewed by DET. HAMRICK, who had arrived in Florence by car. It is corroborated by the pertinent police records and trial transcripts that neither HAMRICK nor his partner DiMODICA talked to either one of the women, nor with Detective SALDATE upon his arrival in Florence. However, during HAMRICK'S interview with JANET FROEBE he would mention that Debra would be arrested. The invented and 'alleged "confession"' of SALDATE was not even an issue at that time, and it proves that the arrest of Debra was solely based on ROGER SCOTT'S unbelievable and incoherent statements.

Mr. Saldate: And I approached her and she was sitting down and she started - and I told her all about it. And I told her what happened and (inaudible). She started yelling, yelling and acting - trying to cry but she didn't have no tears. She didn't cry once. Anyway, we're sitting there - when I interview someone - not here because it's very open and stuff. And I'm not trying to get anything out of you that, you know, like when you're interviewing a suspect or someone - or somebody (inaudible) may not give you all the information but either way I try to get very close to a person, you know. I'm, for the most part, a very good listener. So I like to get very close to a person. So I'm sitting right here, there's no table between us. We're sitting there and she's crying or trying to cry, not crying. I told her, Debbie, I'm not going to tolerate that. I'm not going to tolerate that. I'm here to get the truth. That's usually what I - in any of my interviews that I do I'm just there to get the truth. I'm not -
(Both talking at once)
Mr. Saldate: You know with Debbie how I went in there and I usually do this because I've been working homicide for a long time. I try not to even think of Chris. Chris is not between us. If you were Debbie, Chris is not between us. A case is between us (inaudible) and I went and found him. So, I mean, I'm not - I don't try to get emotionally involved in that point.

Comment: Useless to state that. A police detective should never be emotionally involved in his work.

So me and her talking and I'm telling her I'm not going to tolerate that. She's not going to do it. She - dress looked very nice.

Discrepancy #8: Debbie didn't wear a dress on that day. At her arrest and at trial it was proven that she wore a T-shirt and a cardigan sweater over it.

She wraps the front of her blouse

Comment: Once again: she wore a T-shirt and a cardigan sweater, not a blouse.

and she pulls it up to her eyes, she didn't have no tears, to wipe her tears away but she didn't have any.
Ms. Pickinpaugh: (Inaudible).
Mr. Saldate: Yeah. Which quickly exposed her (noise on tape, couldn't get what was said).

Comment: What was said during the inaudible part was that SALDATE alleged Debbie had flashed her breasts to him. But at trial, SALDATE not only was uncovered to be a liar about her clothing, but a lot of Debra's friends would testify that such an action was definitely unlike her. Furthermore, police procedure prescribes that no female suspect under questioning is to be left alone with a male officer and no witness or other means of verification that a female is not being monitored as to her behavior during any interrogation, just because of sexual abuse claims on either part.

I didn't really pay that much attention to - I knew, you see, my job, in my position I know what she was doing to me.

Comment: Saldate's history of lies and fabricating and twisting statements makes it unlikely that his decency hindered him from disregarding these rules, among others. It was rather the fact that he lied. Or as Debbie said in a private letter: "The dirty, flithy, slimy grease monkey only wished I would flirt with him. He is a lying S.O.B. and unfortunately he was believed. But, of course, people (...) think all cops are worthy and honest."

Debbie and SALDATE during her arrest, she's wearing a white cardigan sweater, and a pink T-shirt.

I knew what she - (inaudible). But see, I'm there for information, okay. And she's like trying to see if I -
Ms. Pickinpaugh: It's working.

Comment: SALDATE could already be pretty sure that SANDY would agreee with his statement, having found out about her sick relationship with her older sister. SANDY'S jealousy towards her sister's success was challenged and SANDY willingly agreed.

Mr. Saldate: It's working. If he's looking at my breasts then I may be able to talk myself out of this. Okay.

Discrepancy #9: Leading statement. Look at his police report and everything he has stated during the Grand Jury Hearing and at Trial: didn't SALDATE always allege Debra was so comfortable with him, that he could make her confess? Why then would she flash her breasts to him? How could a girl, who her sister SANDRA declared to as being that intelligent, think she could get through with that? And if - why wouldn't SALDATE mention that incident in his report? Because it never took place and SALDATE had lied once again.

So that's what I'm telling you.

Comment: Meaning: "That's what I want you to believe."

That's the type of manipulation she does.

Discrepancy #10: Leading statement and prejudiced. That's the kind of manipulation he does.

She loves that. And I understand that. When you tell me that I totally understand you.

Comment: And if SANDY had told him something else he would not have understood? But that could've probably been the truth ...?!

Ms. Pickinpaugh: The thing is it's so natural with her. You know you can pretty much tell (inaudible) being honest with you. Debbie is very hard to really judge because she's so good at it and it comes so naturally for her. I don't know if it's the blonde hair that people when they, you know, they look and say I'm coming up on a blonde, I got to make these kind of exceptions. You know, I don't know if it's that way or she's just so natural about it that it's very, very hard to tell and I mean, I like to sit and observe people and Debbie's always just fascinated with me.
I used to just - during high school I used to sit back and admire this girl and think boy I'm so glad she's my sister, you know (inaudible) misunderstand.
Mr. Saldate: Guess she was doing it to you too?

Comment: SANDY'S sentences started to make SALDATE feel uncomfortable. Please, not too many judgements in Debra's favor!

Ms. Pickinpaugh: And then it kind of shakes me because - I've known her - I've known the truth all my life about what Debbie did when I was a kid I was awed by it. When I got to be a teenager I was jealous of it because I didn't possess the same qualities. I wasn't on the wrestling teams (inaudible). I wasn't real popular. I was a very integrated person. I used to be very jealous of Debbie. And then after we were separated when I went to school (inaudible) I started hearing things left and right from people I'd know since graduation that were telling me, you know. Because I figured - I guess I started becoming the same way in my own sense as far as manipulating people but I just was never any good at it. I got caught every damn time. I got caught. And so it always used to tick me off and then I got over this when I had Jason I started spending time with Debbie because we had our pregnancies in common. The first time we had talked in years.
Debbie and I had never been very close. We'd go months and years without talking to each other. The only time was a mutual need. Because I get all elated, you know. My sister finally wants to pursue a relationship with me. And I'd fall for it every time. I'm 23 and I still fell for it. You know, I told (inaudible) God forbid if she called because I'd probably accept the charges and talk to her just out of, you know, I don't know what it is with me. But it's just been a bad habit where Debbie's concerned. Every time she would knock on my door I knew what she was there for. I knew it but I wanted to do everything I could. I thought maybe if I tried to help her or did something for her she would grow to appreciate it for once, you know, reciprocate instead of take advantage. And I did this for - and I had pressure from my parent too. Every time Debbie and I were at odds with each other my dad would get on the phone and say you're the strong one, you're the more mature one. You need to take the first approach, your sister needs you. I heard this for so many years.
It was fine. I knew my dad wanted for us to be close and my mom wanted us to be close and so I would do this all the time. I knew that (inaudible) you know, and I (inaudible) about myself. When Christopher came I didn't care what she was there for. If she needed to get my nephew out of the picture for a little while, to give him some kind of stability or decency or show him some kind of love (inaudible). She could give him to me any time she wanted to, you know. And I'd say just forget (inaudible)just give me the kid. I'll see you when I see you. You know, because children are - children to me have always been a real special thing to me. That's -
Mr. Saldate: You already told me. You said that (inaudible) kind of funny how you're getting these phone calls in November. He's telling me in October he's trying to split up. He was trying (inaudible).
Ms. Pickinpaugh: He was applying to outside companies. He did tell me that.
Mr. Saldate: He didin't move. Ultimately he didn't leave. Split the relationship up and then -
Ms. Pickinpaugh: That's where the ultimatum came in.

Comment: Didn't we learn from SANDY earlier that it was ERNIE who allegedly proposed marriage? In fact, neither Debbie nor ERNIE SWEAT thought of marriage at that stage, and never did. Witnesses have both heard them state that.

When she got offered the job - I think it was in Colorado - (inaudible) offered him the job and that's where the ultimatum came in because he sat her down and told her that he was going to take either or. He was definitely not going to stay here. And she got all upset and started bawling saying, (inaudible) and you're gone. And that made him feel good. (Inaudible) decent man, you know. And she said well, you're going to take me with you. Which put him on a, you know, he was really up front with her from the start.
Mr. Saldate: (Inaudible) he told me that during that period of time she told him that she was going to go to school. And she was going to get herself a career, go and try to find a career for herself. And she was going to give Christopher to her dad and mom. And then Ernie says that didn't work out because her dad and mon says there ain't no way. Her dad and stepmom.
Ms. Pickinpaugh: Right.
Mr. Saldate: And your dad and mom said there ain't no way so Ernie says that didn't work out. So then he knew that. So then she mentioned you - you were going to take him.
Ms. Pickinpaugh: Oh, yeah, we got a call in September from him. Again, with my parents and I'm not defending them by any means. My dad, yeah, I'm the same way, I'm not cleaning up your messes. My dad (inaudible). See now, Debbie and I are blood sisters but my dad - this is his third marriage. He's got a son by his first marriage and then my mother got us too and then with Maureen he's got three kids. And so he's got a lot of different grandchildren but his blood grandchildren are Jason and Christopher. And he was not prejudiced about anybody, about none of his grandkids, you know. He loved them all equally. And to him - you could just tell by his property, I mean, his whole back yard is for the grandkids, you know. He's got the swingset. He's a 52 year-old-man, you know. His whole back yard is full of toys and things. He loves his grandchildren and he loves anything he can do for them. At Christmastime he just spoils the hell out of them. But they're not his to raise. He raised his kids.

Comment: RICHARD SADEIK also never  assisted  his daughters in Phoenix, either for the marriage ceremonies or birth of his grandchildren or any time at all. He expected them to come visit him on specific dates or holidays in Florence. His first son David, he totally disowned. It is also not known that SANDY'S own father fought against her claim of the father of her own son Jason. It happened to be the son of RICHARD SADEIK immediate neighbor. It was SANDY'S mother who helped SANDY pay the bill for the genetic test and a possible lawsuit.

Mr. Saldate: Did you know about her asking -
Ms. Pickinpaugh: Oh, yes. Oh, yes.
Mr. Saldate: When did you find that out?
Ms. Pickinpaugh: When she called us wanted more money. She says Dad's being an asshole and he doesn't understand and you understand because you've been through it. It's true. My dad - my parents (inaudible) Mr. Saldate: What did he understand? Why did she want to get rid of Christopher? Ms. Pickinpaugh: She told me it was because she just couldn't handle him. It was the same excuse. She couldn't handle him. Christopher was a very strung little boy. He was very very hard to take care of. But -
Mr. Saldate: (Inaudible)
Ms. Pickinpaugh: Normal. Yes.

Discrepancy #11: This is an interesting point in Saldate's interview. "Why did she want to get rid of Christopher?" The cop had no idea how to paint in Debra's alleged motive to want to have her 4-year-old boy killed. Why then did he ask SANDY at all? Because the alleged confession has never taken place at all. The question at this point of the interview proves that Debbie indeed never made a confession to SALDATE and he has completey fabricated it. This is also not what SALDATE wanted to hear. He was after a statement of SANDY saying how she had experienced Debbie's abuse towards Christopher, as she claims up to this day (click to read a post of SANDY in a public discussion). No abuse whatsover has taken place from Debra towards Christopher. She sure had difficulties with her active little son, but that was about it.

Mr. Saldate: Because if you don't get no love you go out and seek it.

Comment: SALDATE didn't give up hoping and sleuthing to hear the incriminating statements what a bad mother Debra was.

Ms. Pickinpaugh: That kid was -
Mr. Saldate: Do we agree on that? I mean -

Comment: Don't you understand what I want you to tell me, is what SALDATE actually had in mind.

Ms. Pickinpaugh: Yeah. My theory why he was that way was yes, you know, he was seeking attention and he knew the only way to get attention was to act up and that would stir Debbie up. And negative attention was better than no attention at all. And (inaudible) thinking in a child's term, you know. You know when I would have him the firs couple days would be, I mean, (inaudible) he was not beyond choking because he was just so - didn't want to listen. Didn't want to learn. Didn't want to follow rules, you know. And Jason's just the opposite. Jason is a very (inaudible), very low key, you know. Entertains himself. Christopher's just the opposite. Had to be attended to constantly. But after a couple days he would calm down and be just like Jason, you know. It was just that way. She called and just said that she couldn't handle him. She didn't have - Debbie never had patience not only with her son, but Debbie just didn't have patience period. She didn't have time. Christopher interfered with her schedule. Christopher interfered with her personal life. Christopher interfered with her social life. Which now thinking about it I couldn't see why because she had so many people to take care of him. She was able to do more things. I used to be very jealous of her because I was stuck home with mine. I couldn't go out. I couldn't do things but she could.
Mr. Saldate: Did she tell you that he was interfering with her social business?
Ms. Pickinpaugh: Yes. Oh, yes. She told us back when we were still in Phoenix that he was a problem with her and Ernie's relationship. And that if she could just find a solution she and Ernie could be together.
Mr. Saldate: When did she tell you that?
Ms. Pickinpaugh: Oh, gosh. I would say - I would say it was July like the 28th, the 27th or 28th. It was that week. The last weekend in July. We were sitting on the stoop waiting for Ernie and his brother to come and we were talking about it. I asked her, you know, how her relationship with Ernie was going and she (inaudible) at that time. She was looking to move out of Ilsa's trailer because Ilsa, for whatever reason, Ilsa drinking or whatever, setting the trailer on fire, what have you.
She was frustrated with her new job because she wasn't making right then what she wanted to. And her and Ernie were having problems. And the problems were apparently from what she told me were Christopher.

Comment: Please note that SANDY had initially claimed that "they were going to get married as soon as Ernie spent a little bit more time with Christopher and got a little bit better adjusted to Christopher." It more and more became a web of lies and character damage.

And to me what I got out of that conversation was that (inaudible). This is your new life and just get in that truck and go. Don't worry about Christopher. Don't worry about Debbie's problems. Which is what she was trying to do. Exactly what she was trying to do.
Mr. Saldate: She tried to get you to take Chris?
Ms. Pickinpaugh: Exactly. It was - yeah, it was stricly a ploy. And I knew it and I'll tell you (inaudible) Christopher was just like my own, he was - I mean, you're with a child for so long and spend so much time with him it's very hard not to get attached. You know, the boys are only five weeks apart and then look so much alike it's very very devastating. It was very hard. I just kept sitting back. I just kept thinking well hurry up and pull up here so I can leave because I knew if I sat there any longer I'd say okay. You know. Because that was me. I'm just as dumb. I can't say no to anybody either.
But if at that time she had told me she and Ernie - like I said I didn't take too much out of it because she and Ernie were always having problems, typical.

Comment: ... said the mother of a child who has never even been married or lived together with the natural father of her child. But yet she told her mother that she would take Christopher any time, because he was "perfect" and she needed him for Jason to develop the same way. Neither MARK nor Debra 'deserved such a perfect child'.

It was typical for her, you know. If something was not going right with her it was a major catastrophe. Mr. Saldate: In September she says that she was having problems about the - he was interfering in her social life and her work and her boyfriend. Ms. Pickinpaugh: Really her problem was Ernie at that time and I asked her - she said - it kind of worked out. She said that she and Ernie - Ernie had gotten offered a job - I believe it was in Colorado but I can't swear to it. She said she wanted to go with him. I told her to go for it and she says well, I'm just worried about Christopher because Mark was out - I think in prison at that time - well, he left and she was having a hard time. She said that she had sat down with Mark and that Mark said that no, he couldn't go with my dad but he could go with me. And so they were having problems at that time. Mark - Debbie got a peace bond on him and I don't know what else. But that was nothing unusual either. They were always fighting too.
Mr. Saldate: So when you said that Ernie was going to get another job - (inaudible) but Chris couldn't go.
Ms. Pickinpaugh: Ernie had asked her to go but that he was real hesitant about taking Christopher. And I asked her, I said are you sure it's Ernie or you. He's looking for another way out. And then she got mad and she hung up on me and called me a week later apologized and said Mark kidnapped Christopher and that she didn't feel Christopher was safe anymore.
Mr. Saldate: When was this?
Ms. Pickinpaugh: A week later.
Mr. Saldate: Compared to the killing when was this?
Ms. Pickinpaugh: Right. Oh, yeah, it was a week later. It was a week later, it was in September, a week later. And her mom was on the other phone and she lives in (inaudible). Now she's making up stuff. I told her again, I said, look, I said, you know, until you and Ernie work this out I'll tell you what we'll do. I'll sit down and try to discuss it with him. And she instantly was happy. Okay. Ron and I sat down and discussed it and I called her back and I said mom will be there - I don't even remember when my mom was there - she (inaudible) September. If mom is willing to pay for his plane fare out here when she comes then Ron and I would be willing to keep Christopher for no longer than two months until she got her shit together.

Comment: Debra's mother, RENATE JANKA, has a different recollection of these proceedings. It was a talk between Sandy and Debbie that Christopher could probably see his grandparents during their entire trip from Phoenix to Wyoming and back and that Jason, SANDY'S son, would benefit from having Chris around. The logistics and Debra's work schedule made it difficult to secure a trip back to Phoenix for Christopher, just in case Debbie couldn't make it to Salt Lake City by car in time. Given the distances and the few opportunities to provide for a safe return, MR.and MS. JANKA decided to cancel that trip for Christopher to Wyoming.

Mr. Saldate: Two months (inaudible). I'm getting ahead of myself.


(Beep sound - nothing further on tape)


STATE OF ARIZONA
COUNTY OF MARICOPA

I hereby certify that the foregoing pages numbered 1 through 41 inclusive, is a correct transcript from the record of proceedings in the above-entitled matter.

Transscriber 9/18/90